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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Sep 06 at 7:13am

Originally posted by Garry

Parties to the protest knowing the rules should not, in theory, affect the outcome of a protest it should be decided on the facts found.

I'm not sure that is true even in theory. Protests are about making your case. Therefore you need to understand what case you are making. The facts found will be related to the facts reported. You only know which facts matter, and therefore should be reported, if you understand, at least to some degree, the application of the rules to the situation.
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Posts: 99 		Post Options Post Options   Quote FreshScum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 06 at 10:58am
I agree with Stefan. While on the subject of sailing backwards; is it backwards through the water or relative to the land which 'counts'? Thinking about the presence of tide/current.
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 06 at 1:08pm

Originally posted by FreshScum

I agree with Stefan. While on the subject of sailing backwards; is it backwards through the water or relative to the land which 'counts'? Thinking about the presence of tide/current.

Water. 

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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 06 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd


I'm not sure that is true even in theory. Protests are about making your case. Therefore you need to understand what case you are making. The facts found will be related to the facts reported. You only know which facts matter, and therefore should be reported, if you understand, at least to some degree, the application of the rules to the situation.



I won't deny that knowing the rules helps, but saying the other boat infringed 18.2 because he tacked inside the two lengths circle is really no different from saying that the other boat tacked under you close to the mark and then luffed up forcing you to tack or hit you. Its up to the protest committee to determine if the facts support the other boat tacking inside the two boat length or if there is any doubt... Your explanation suggest a degree of making the facts fit the rules, protest committees are actually quiet savy at spoting that sort of thing.

The danager with not having a good working knowledge of the rules is lodging a protest when in fact you were in the wrong (and I've seen that a few times).



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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 06 at 6:47am

Originally posted by Garry

Your explanation suggest a degree of making the facts fit the rules

Certainly not. The point is that there are a million facts but only a few are relevant. To know which those are requires a knowledge of the rules.

Read RRS appendix M, which describes the recommended procedure for a protest. One party is described as making a case, the other defending it. How can you possibly make a case if you don't know the rules? How do you even fill in the form which is normally required?

The protest system is based on adversarial Anglo-Saxon law, where the two sides argue their case. There may be a "Judge". There is no "Investigating Magistrate". 
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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 06 at 8:05am

There is no requirement to state which rules have been broken on the protest form.  Furthermore just because the protestor states rule 18 was broken doesn't stop the protest committee finding that it was rule 10.

While I agree the set-up tends to make it adversarial there is also the element of an investigating committee.

What would be the outcome if boat A on starboard was hit by boat B on port (no other boats around and plenty of navigable water).  Boat A only knows the IRPCS and that if you're hit shout protest.  Boat B is a rules expert pushing his luck.  Are you suggesting that boat B would be exonerated at a hearing?

Of course B should just do his turns and get on with racing but how often do we see that nowadays!
Garry

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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 06 at 1:02pm

There are a number of scenarios in which a starboard tack boat may be deemed to have infringed a port tack boat. In particular rules 15, 16.1, 16.2 may all provide the port tack boat with some hope.

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