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Sailing Backwards

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2231
Printed Date: 07 Aug 25 at 11:54pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Sailing Backwards
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Subject: Sailing Backwards
Date Posted: 20 Sep 06 at 8:13pm
Last weekend this happened to me - a boat in front of me was early on the line with the tide under them and then backed his main and reversed into me.  We were both on stbd. tack who was in the right.  Was I "overtaking boat" and in the wrong or was he in the wrong ( and being a smart ---!!!! ,) It ended up with him getting a good start and me in somewhat dissarray when the gun went, there was no collision though and so no incident, but I am interested to hear what people think ( I suspect that I was in the wrong whcih was my first ( instinctive) reaction.



Replies:
Posted By: stickthin
Date Posted: 20 Sep 06 at 8:18pm

You were in the right, he should have kept out of your way;

"2.3 A boat moving astern by backing a sail shall keep clear of one that is

not."

 



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Laser Radial 154747


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Sep 06 at 9:49pm
So if you had to avoid him you could have yelled "protest" amd he'd have had to do his turms or be dsq


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Sep 06 at 11:14pm

It might be worth noting that the notion of "overtaking boat" does not exist in the rules, and has not existed for many years... A boat is either clear astern or overlapped.

 Rule 17.1 limits the rights of a boat that a boat establishing an overlap from clear astern (both boats may be sailing backwards when this happens ... rule 20.3 only applies if a boat is backing her sail) so that she cannot sail above her proper course.

Gordon DAVIES



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Gordon


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 21 Sep 06 at 3:07pm

Dear all,

Thanks for the input.  Gordon are you saying that I was rin the right or not? (I'm a bit thick and you lost me a bit)



Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 21 Sep 06 at 3:37pm

If the other boat was moving astern by backing a sail she was required to keep clear. In this case it seems that she did not. You were in the right.

I  wanted to warn you about using the phrase "overtaking boat". The fact that you are overtaking or not now has no importance whatsoever in the rules. If you use the phrase "overtaking boat" in a protest at best you will solicit a wry smile from members of the protest committee, at worst you will convince them that yopu do not have a clear grap of the rules.

The rules now talk about a boat clear astern becoming overlapped... this may be because she is overtaking, it may also be because the clear ahead boat has altered course, or may even be sailing backwards. This becomes important in the context of rule 17.1 which limits the luffing rights of a clear astern boat when she bocomes overlapped within two boat lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack.

 

Gordon DAVIES

 



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Gordon


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 21 Sep 06 at 3:53pm

Often when boats back their mains and stop and you are moving forwards it is very hard to tell who is in the right.

It is only when they are actually sailing backwards they lose their rights; when they are stopped and you are not overlapped then you need to avoid them until you are perhaps overlapped to leeward and have acquired luffing rights.

Rick



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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Sep 06 at 4:57pm
And even then if they are stopped you have to give them time to respond to your luffing.

I find looking for a gap near the right end of the line is better.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 25 Sep 06 at 7:21pm
Parties to the protest knowing the rules should not, in theory, affect the outcome of a protest it should be decided on the facts found.

In most cases the reversing boat is to windward and therefore required to keep clear and as long as you don't alter course you don't have to give them the opportunity to keep clear as their actions have placed them as give way boat. (hope you followed that, probably gordon could express it better) The exception would be if they were stopped (not making sternway)and you just ran into their stern.

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 25 Sep 06 at 7:50pm

I could never resist flattery, Garry. So here goes

If a windward overlapped boat starts sailing backwards by backing a sail you do not have to give room to keep clear. As windward overlapped boat she already had an obligation to keep clear, that obligation remains even if the rule that gives her that obligation is no longer the same.

Rule 15 only applies when you acquire right of way by your own actions, like sailing into an overlapped position to leeward of another boat. If she establishes an overlap to windward she has acquired an obligation to keep clear by her own actions and you do not have to give room to keep clear.

Hope this is clear

 

Gordon



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Gordon


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Sep 06 at 7:13am

Originally posted by Garry

Parties to the protest knowing the rules should not, in theory, affect the outcome of a protest it should be decided on the facts found.

I'm not sure that is true even in theory. Protests are about making your case. Therefore you need to understand what case you are making. The facts found will be related to the facts reported. You only know which facts matter, and therefore should be reported, if you understand, at least to some degree, the application of the rules to the situation.



Posted By: FreshScum
Date Posted: 26 Sep 06 at 10:58am
I agree with Stefan. While on the subject of sailing backwards; is it backwards through the water or relative to the land which 'counts'? Thinking about the presence of tide/current.


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 26 Sep 06 at 1:08pm

Originally posted by FreshScum

I agree with Stefan. While on the subject of sailing backwards; is it backwards through the water or relative to the land which 'counts'? Thinking about the presence of tide/current.

Water. 



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 26 Sep 06 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd


I'm not sure that is true even in theory. Protests are about making your case. Therefore you need to understand what case you are making. The facts found will be related to the facts reported. You only know which facts matter, and therefore should be reported, if you understand, at least to some degree, the application of the rules to the situation.



I won't deny that knowing the rules helps, but saying the other boat infringed 18.2 because he tacked inside the two lengths circle is really no different from saying that the other boat tacked under you close to the mark and then luffed up forcing you to tack or hit you. Its up to the protest committee to determine if the facts support the other boat tacking inside the two boat length or if there is any doubt... Your explanation suggest a degree of making the facts fit the rules, protest committees are actually quiet savy at spoting that sort of thing.

The danager with not having a good working knowledge of the rules is lodging a protest when in fact you were in the wrong (and I've seen that a few times).



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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 27 Sep 06 at 6:47am

Originally posted by Garry

Your explanation suggest a degree of making the facts fit the rules

Certainly not. The point is that there are a million facts but only a few are relevant. To know which those are requires a knowledge of the rules.

Read RRS appendix M, which describes the recommended procedure for a protest. One party is described as making a case, the other defending it. How can you possibly make a case if you don't know the rules? How do you even fill in the form which is normally required?

The protest system is based on adversarial Anglo-Saxon law, where the two sides argue their case. There may be a "Judge". There is no "Investigating Magistrate". 



Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 27 Sep 06 at 8:05am

There is no requirement to state which rules have been broken on the protest form.  Furthermore just because the protestor states rule 18 was broken doesn't stop the protest committee finding that it was rule 10.

While I agree the set-up tends to make it adversarial there is also the element of an investigating committee.

What would be the outcome if boat A on starboard was hit by boat B on port (no other boats around and plenty of navigable water).  Boat A only knows the IRPCS and that if you're hit shout protest.  Boat B is a rules expert pushing his luck.  Are you suggesting that boat B would be exonerated at a hearing?

Of course B should just do his turns and get on with racing but how often do we see that nowadays!



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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 27 Sep 06 at 1:02pm

There are a number of scenarios in which a starboard tack boat may be deemed to have infringed a port tack boat. In particular rules 15, 16.1, 16.2 may all provide the port tack boat with some hope.

Gordon



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Gordon



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