Sailing Backwards

keep clear

   Last weekend this happened to me - a boat in front of me was early on the line with the tide under them and then backed his main and reversed into me.  We were both on stbd. tack who was in the right.  Was I "overtaking boat" and in the wrong or was he in the wrong ( and being a smart ---!!!! ,) It ended up with him getting a good start and me in somewhat dissarray when the gun went, there was no collision though and so no incident, but I am interested to hear what people think ( I suspect that I was in the wrong whcih was my first ( instinctive) reaction.

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Oatsandbeans Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 19 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 382	Post Options Post Reply Quote Oatsandbeans Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Sailing Backwards Posted: 20 Sep 06 at 8:13pm
	Last weekend this happened to me - a boat in front of me was early on the line with the tide under them and then backed his main and reversed into me. We were both on stbd. tack who was in the right. Was I "overtaking boat" and in the wrong or was he in the wrong ( and being a smart ---!!!! ,) It ended up with him getting a good start and me in somewhat dissarray when the gun went, there was no collision though and so no incident, but I am interested to hear what people think ( I suspect that I was in the wrong whcih was my first ( instinctive) reaction.

stickthin Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Newbie Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 17	Post Options Post Reply Quote stickthin Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 20 Sep 06 at 8:18pm
	You were in the right, he should have kept out of your way; "2.3 A boat moving astern by backing a sail shall keep clear of one that is not."
	Laser Radial 154747

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 20 Sep 06 at 9:49pm
	So if you had to avoid him you could have yelled "protest" amd he'd have had to do his turms or be dsq

gordon Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037	Post Options Post Reply Quote gordon Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 20 Sep 06 at 11:14pm
	It might be worth noting that the notion of "overtaking boat" does not exist in the rules, and has not existed for many years... A boat is either clear astern or overlapped. Rule 17.1 limits the rights of a boat that a boat establishing an overlap from clear astern (both boats may be sailing backwards when this happens ... rule 20.3 only applies if a boat is backing her sail) so that she cannot sail above her proper course. Gordon DAVIES
	Gordon

Oatsandbeans Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 19 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 382	Post Options Post Reply Quote Oatsandbeans Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Sep 06 at 3:07pm
	Dear all, Thanks for the input. Gordon are you saying that I was rin the right or not? (I'm a bit thick and you lost me a bit)

gordon Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037	Post Options Post Reply Quote gordon Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Sep 06 at 3:37pm
	If the other boat was moving astern by backing a sail she was required to keep clear. In this case it seems that she did not. You were in the right. I wanted to warn you about using the phrase "overtaking boat". The fact that you are overtaking or not now has no importance whatsoever in the rules. If you use the phrase "overtaking boat" in a protest at best you will solicit a wry smile from members of the protest committee, at worst you will convince them that yopu do not have a clear grap of the rules. The rules now talk about a boat clear astern becoming overlapped... this may be because she is overtaking, it may also be because the clear ahead boat has altered course, or may even be sailing backwards. This becomes important in the context of rule 17.1 which limits the luffing rights of a clear astern boat when she bocomes overlapped within two boat lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack. Gordon DAVIES
	Gordon

Guest Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guest Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Sep 06 at 3:53pm
	Often when boats back their mains and stop and you are moving forwards it is very hard to tell who is in the right. It is only when they are actually sailing backwards they lose their rights; when they are stopped and you are not overlapped then you need to avoid them until you are perhaps overlapped to leeward and have acquired luffing rights. Rick

jeffers Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048	Post Options Post Reply Quote jeffers Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 21 Sep 06 at 4:57pm
	And even then if they are stopped you have to give them time to respond to your luffing. I find looking for a gap near the right end of the line is better.
	Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74

Garry Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 18 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 536	Post Options Post Reply Quote Garry Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 25 Sep 06 at 7:21pm
	Parties to the protest knowing the rules should not, in theory, affect the outcome of a protest it should be decided on the facts found. In most cases the reversing boat is to windward and therefore required to keep clear and as long as you don't alter course you don't have to give them the opportunity to keep clear as their actions have placed them as give way boat. (hope you followed that, probably gordon could express it better) The exception would be if they were stopped (not making sternway)and you just ran into their stern.
	Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk

gordon Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037	Post Options Post Reply Quote gordon Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 25 Sep 06 at 7:50pm
	I could never resist flattery, Garry. So here goes If a windward overlapped boat starts sailing backwards by backing a sail you do not have to give room to keep clear. As windward overlapped boat she already had an obligation to keep clear, that obligation remains even if the rule that gives her that obligation is no longer the same. Rule 15 only applies when you acquire right of way by your own actions, like sailing into an overlapped position to leeward of another boat. If she establishes an overlap to windward she has acquired an obligation to keep clear by her own actions and you do not have to give room to keep clear. Hope this is clear Gordon
	Gordon