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Foiling 18' skiff

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Prince Buster View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 Sep 06 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Black no sugar

Originally posted by euphemism, who doesn't want to be seen swearing on the forum,

holy mother of cr@p

Originally posted by Prince Buster, who posts faster than he thinks,

soz i cant get that link, can you try not hyperlinking it cos right now its giving me an e-mail adress lol!

 

LOL LOL It's not a hyperlink, it's a hyperbole!



lol! no seriously bns i can't see the thing, can someone make it right for me!!
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 06 at 12:44am
About the racks; someone (on SA I think) from the Association said that the racks have been extended (to 17' from 14', I think) to allow the boat to carry a 36ft tall rig for open races.

Old-time (ie the 1980s) skiffies will tell you that 17' is woosy. At one time the limit was 22'; only sailed on once and in light winds but it was a looooooooong way across.

Before that limitation was brought in, the mid 1980s "Bradmill" won the "worlds" with a 32' wingspan. Masts were up to 45 feet. Boat weight were down to 99lb/45kg for the bare hull. Budgets were over $200,000 per season, or about 7+ times the average income I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 06 at 11:16am

Originally posted by CT249

Before that limitation was brought in, the mid 1980s "Bradmill" won the "worlds" with a 32' wingspan. Masts were up to 45 feet. Boat weight were down to 99lb/45kg for the bare hull.

That is awesome!

* bows down to worship "Bradmill" *

Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 06 at 11:29am
Originally posted by CT249

About the racks; someone (on SA I think) from the
Association said that the racks have been extended (to 17' from 14', I
think) to allow the boat to carry a 36ft tall rig for open races.Old-time (ie
the 1980s) skiffies will tell you that 17' is woosy. At one time the limit
was 22'; only sailed on once and in light winds but it was a looooooooong
way across.Before that limitation was brought in, the mid 1980s
"Bradmill" won the "worlds" with a 32' wingspan. Masts were up to 45
feet. Boat weight were down to 99lb/45kg for the bare hull. Budgets were
over $200,000 per season, or about 7+ times the average income I think.


But were they any faster than now?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote m_liddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 06 at 12:31pm
There is some stuff written on rack width on 18's in 'High Performance Sailing'. I don't have it with me but apparently the smaller racks ended up being faster.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 06 at 1:46pm
Were they faster? It's a subject for some debate. Brownie, who won the "worlds" with Bradmill (and designed it so he has some vague idea; his next boat Entrad is the one pictured at 35 knots in Bethwaite's book) reckons the big wing boats became too unwieldly and had too much drag, and the later, lighter Grand Prix boats were quicker.

Some others (like the sailmaker who got second to Bradmill) reckon the big-wing boats were quicker in the special conditions of that regatta, which was sailed off Brisbane where the wind is steady. Tacking the boats was a problem with the massive windage.

Still others say that the GP 18s suffered a distinct speed loss in light winds when the big rig was taken out of them. The current Murray 18s with the short wings are unanimously declared to be slower than the 17' (?) wingspan Grand Prix Bethwaite boats.

Fastest of them all by some accounts (Brownie and Julian if I recall correctly) was the B 18s that Emmett Lazich (world Moth champ and gold medal 49er coach) fitted with carbon wings and spars.

Comparison of wing width, like all advances in 18s, is made difficult by the rule changes that banned new designs and cut down the wings and (later) rigs, leaving the Bethwaite hull out in front because it was designed as a two-hander and therefore suited the smaller rigs and wings (and arguably better suited to the increased speed of modern rigs and materials). The Brown and Murray boats, designed to take more weight and generate more power, were generally not as quick under the smaller rigs and wings when restrictions came in.

From a transcript of an interview with Julian, discussing the arrival of AAMI (the first really succesful Bethwaite 18) to the Grand Prix;

< http-equiv="content-" content="text/;charset=UTF-8"> “89 was the first AAMI, and they had got rid of the big rig but still had the 39' rig. AAMI's big rig was 36'or 34'; everyone thought that we would be Ok mid range but slow in light air and very slow in a breeze. Well  it turned out we were diabolically fast in light air, just see you later , and there was a range in the middle where we were a tad ordinary, but as soon as it blew we were gone again,  and I just oput it down to less drag. They were running 100mm mast sections and we were running with 80…..We were failry utalitarian, and I think the other difference is that we were sailing four days a weeks, and they spent four days a week in the workshop putting ot back together again to sail it on the weekend. It was a little unfair in a sense because our boats were so much more practical. "

"The B18 Mk1 AAIMI 1991 still holds the NE course record to this date. It was 49 minutes around the track. That was a 17' wide boat, it was a heat of the world championship; it was an electrifying day. Even the big machines that happened before didn't come anywhere near. I think we lopped 6 or 7 minutes off it."

From the interview with Brownie (I've still got the Bradmill and Entrad plans in my wardrobe, must drop them back) describing the wide-wing episode for that Brisbane "worlds".

< http-equiv="content-" content="text/;charset=UTF-8">

“Basically we went out, on average, 18 inches a day” recalls Brownie. “We were at a wing width of 28', and then we had two-foot clip-ons that we called turbochargers. The widest we ever went was 32'; no-one else has been there.”

“The wider you went, the more sail area you could carry in more wind, so the loads on the boats went up dramatically. We were carrying our number 2 rig (    high   ) in 22 knots of breeze, were you'd usually pull if off in around 15 or 17 knots.”

“So every time you went out, apart from the obvious things like lengthening the mainsheet, jibsheet, control lines, trap wires, and tiller extensions, you also had to put carbon on the mast and the spinnaker pole, 'cause the loads went right up.”

Height and pole of #1 rig

The massive width and power of the boats had a major effect on the style of racing. “The weight went up as the rigs got heavier, and your manoevrability was greatly reduced. Normally you'd just come off the start line and pick a side, go to a layline, come in, tack or gybe at the mark and go to another lay. So basically, you were just doing a square course, you minimized tacks and gybes and just went for the straight line speed.”

“The noticeable difference was when you came in and out of the tacks and onto the plane. You had more weight to get on the plane, so the transitional area before planing was extended by the extra weight, but that was compensated by the extra horsepower you were generating out of your sails.”  Sudden breaking free.

“Because of the width of the wings, the timing of moving through the wings was so critical - if you were late getting across you'd capsize, and if you were too early you'd put the windward wing in. The boats were slower to turn, but the crew had to move faster to get across. So you were basically sprinting from one side to the other to have a good tack. You had to be very definite in turning the boat - if the guys started moving across the boat, you were committed to go.”

“When you came into the tack and off the plane the boat would stop, because you've got all this sail area up there with the same skinny hull. The drag of the rig was another thing you had to overcome, because it wasn't designed; all this stuff was just added on during the regatta.”

Spectacular as they were, Rob says that the “dinosaur” 18s were slower than the smaller, more efficient breed that evolved when rigs and wings were restricted.

< http-equiv="content-" content="text/;charset=UTF-8">

“The mid '90s Grand Prix style 18 was, I think, the pinnacle of design. It was an unforgiving hull shape, with knife-edge sailing in light and fresh. The boats were marginal anything over 25 knots, and you had a lot of trouble keeping the bows out, but they were fantastic boats upwind and if you sailed them right downwind and had a good skill level on board, you'd be able to get round.”

< http-equiv="content-" content="text/;charset=UTF-8">

The amazing thing was, the GP hull was probably the ultimate hull shape for the era. When Emmett then got rid of weight in wings, poles, spars, by going carbon all the way through, the performacne increase he says was absolutely dramatic. Coming out of a tack or gybe, the boat would accelerate and you'd get thrown backwards."


'Scuse the long post.







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Isis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 06 at 1:58pm
Very intersting post once again mr CT249, thanks
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Tornado_ALIVE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tornado_ALIVE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 06 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by CT249

'Scuse the long post.

Appologies not necessary Chris........  Great post

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Post Options Post Options   Quote headfry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 06 at 2:21pm
fascinating reading!  thank you CT249
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 06 at 3:37pm
brilliant, cheers.
Needs to sail more...
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