Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
'Fake/Training' Laser Sails |
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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"And there is no reason to shout either ...."
Sure, it was meant of course merely to be a light-hearted extension on your own "many MANY" comment. "This is not a class knocking comment, nobody is trying to rubbish your chosen class." Hmmmmm "slow and outdated"...what was that about class-knocking comments? ![]() "This is why at my club and many others laser fleets are giving serious consideration to allowing local alternatives such as the Rooster one." Sure, no problem with that, I supported the use of training sails further up the thread. "I'd be interested to hear the other side of the story proving how they last a long time?" I didn't say it was a long time, just that it lasts longer than "just a couple of windy opens". Put it this way - we've only ever had 2 new Laser sails in my family; one big rig, one small rig. Those 2 sails have won the big-rig states overall and junior (against 1st and 3rd in the Open Worlds), Radial states overall and Master (against #4 in the Radial open worlds and the 3 time Masters world champ); Youth big-rig nationals; 3rd (I think) overall at the big rig nats; top 10 in Radial nats (damn training injuries.... ![]() So you could get to be 22nd in the big rig worlds using 1 ancient training sail and 1 new sail - that (and the charter sail at the worlds) was all, in an entire Laser career. That doesn't seem like a major cost to compete at world class in the world's biggest class for adults. I spent this year using a 1 year old sail, flogged by the previous owner. It was 100% competitive with the 3 locals who have won Laser Masters worlds over the last 2 years (ie beat 2 of them, almost beat the 3rd). Two of these guys are about Steve Cockerill pace......as a Master you couldn't beat those guys with an old sail if it was a major disadvantage. Well, maybe you could, I'm not that fast. |
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stuarthop ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 22 Dec 04 Location: Nottingham Online Status: Offline Posts: 1040 |
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when i was racing nationally in my radial i found that i had to buy a new sail every season and that was stretching it a bit. basically at start of every season i bought a new sail for championships only, the rest of the time i used my last seasons sail. in total i had about a total of about 28 days racing each year with my championship sail and it was completely worn out by the end of the season
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Isis ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Sep 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2753 |
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Interesting... Ive spoken to a number of very good radial sailors in the past with stories about ripping cunningham eyes out of brand new sails in windy regattas just in an attempt to get the sail set up correctly. Its also pretty common knowlage that anyone competing at top level in the laser fleet with enough cash to splash about will have a new sail for every major regatta, which cant say much for how well they last. Id be interested to hear the other side of the story proving how they last a long time? |
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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....We are all very happy for you as well but it's not Blaze sailors grinding on about the cost and durability of their sails is it !! Your 95+% of Lasers sailors who only need a new sail every couple of seasons are not generally the ones who go to the Nationals, major opens, or are active within the association are they .... That much is obvious - they mostly stay nearer home and grumble. The point is why should they be deprived of a good quality alternative training sail because the 5% want to keep them all in the fold ? If they had easy access to good alternatives, accepted at local level for racing, they might then be able to get one every season if needed, see their results improve against the travelling other 5%, and then get out on the circuit themselves - even buying an 'official' sail when they do .... And there is no reason to shout either .... I'm pretty certain when I say that virtually every Blaze and most other singlehanders have raced Lasers at one time or another - I've had five in my time. We resented the 'value for money' of Laser sails at the time and I only echo what is still a topic within the current Laser community. This is not a class knocking comment, nobody is trying to rubbish your chosen class. I'm all for one strict 'one-design' when the sail is proven durable over time and of reasonable cost. But when the manufacturer and/or the association cannot deliver that for all owners then questions will naturally be asked of both. Manufacture in the far-east these days means there is very considerable room for price 'adjustment' - hence the rise of training sails. This is why at my club and many others laser fleets are giving serious consideration to allowing local alternatives such as the Rooster one. Blaze 720
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Blobby ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 779 |
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One step forwards, 2 steps back...
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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"We have voted already".
Yes, and the results are just coming in from the returning officer now...... Votes cast at last nationals - Laser 360 votes, Blazer 54 votes (Oh OK, call it 104 big rigs v 54 Blazes). Votes cast by joining UK class association - Laser 1855 votes, Blaze.....? So if as you say, there's "many, MANY more" who have voted to get out of the Lasers, there's obviously "many, MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY" more who are quite happy to stay in. Yes, the Laser sails are expensive (although I'm convinced it's proven that they last much better than many people say) but that gives the dealers a chance to make profits and keep promoting the class. I run a SMOD class with sails that are better, cheaper and longer-lasting and because there's no profit in the class, we can't get dealers to stock it and therefore we don't get as much promotion. Yes, expensive sails are a problem in some ways. But they're not a problem unless people need new sails. 95%+ of Laser sailors really only need a new sail every couple of seasons if that.....their problem is lack of training not lack of sail speed. So most Laser sailors don't need to spend much to remain competitive at their level, and many of them can just get a second hand sail from the small percentage (but large number) of top sailors. Edited by Chris 249 |
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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"If you dont like it, dont sail a laser!" Having been there I, and many MANY more, dont need any more persuading we have voted already ! The fact it's an outdated and painfully slow boat by modern standards speaks for itself. The old chestnut that its's somehow 'fair' that overpriced sails that do not last more than a couple of windy opens in reasonable nick just does not wash anymore for more and more people. Get yourself a good training sail if you must but don't be a slave to simple exploitation - ask yourselves just what these sails cost to produce .... in the far east. And then wonder exactly who its 'fair' for ,,,,, QED Blaze 720 |
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radial179102 ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Mar 05 Location: Wales Online Status: Offline Posts: 198 |
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i have found the training sails harder to sail in the windy stuff. they have stiffer leeches and dont spill the wind as well, and they are slightly faster in light winds up wind. and are better at going against the tide for some reason. I have a rooster training sail and an official sail. I find they are very different but I cant really explain how. also, the offical sails point higher |
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Isis ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Sep 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2753 |
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The whole ethos of the laser is that everything should be the same!
when you volenteer to sail a smod you volenteer to pay rediculous
proces for everything because by its very nature their manufacturers
can charge whatever they want for something that only they produce. |
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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"Because Laser own the brand, set the rules, supply the sails and get the ££s. It's not up to the class association" Why on earth not ? It's the punters who ultimately pay for everything and decide what they do with their craft - if a group, be that the association or a local club fleet, who organise racing decide enough is enough who is going to or is even capable of stopping them ? It's called consumer choice or power if you like and why should this market be any different - anything threatening that 'right' is surely bordering on a restrictive practice. Keep the 'official' sail for jumping through the hoops at 'official' events perhaps but why not 'training' sails the rest of the time. So how independant is your class association ? ... and how independant should it be from the manufacturer ? Discuss ..... Blaze 720
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