At our club we are thinking about allowing people to race with the fake or training sails that you can by e.g. Rooster Laser Sails.

If anyone has any knowledge of these could they please address the below 4 points

1) What is you club?
2) Do you allow people to club race with "fake/training" sails (yes/no)?
3) Do the "fake/training" sails offer any performance advantage (yes/no)?
4) Are there any other points to consider?

regards,

Rick

Are club Combs S.C allows them. they dont seem to offer any better performance then a Hyde laser sail apart from on your wallet.

At my club the club owned lasers have (attractive neon) fake laser sails.

They seem to be considerably worse in performance than those with their own lasers, although it is hard to tell if that has to do with the difference in age of boats and the quality of sailor.

You'd have to be careful they were comparable, our "radial" sails are rumoured to be bigger than the real thing, and clearly cannot be true radial sails as they are not radially cut!

A few people used to use the Rooster replica's at my last sailing club...

They didn't seem any faster or slower in any wind conditions...seemed to work about the same as the real Laser sails.

Without try to derail this thread, do these 'training' sails last longer? The official sails have a pathetically short life.

Good thread Rick, about time we opened this one up!

Carsington tacitly allows "fake" sails for club racing ... and no-one has ever complained about my rooster one.  Its previous owner even used it in an open!  

If a performance advantage resulted I'm sure there would soon be a change; but the age of the hull (and its occupant) preclude anything being won so the question has never arisen!

On performance:

a) certainly not faster than a laser sail.

b) more solidly made than laser's - so ought to last better and well worth owning if only for practice sessions and blasting.

b) it's stiffer, so the cunningham is harder to pull on which makes de-powering a little harder.

As ever with SMODs - everyone worries about tiny kit changes that make next to no difference but no-one's bothered about the guy who buys a new sail every 3 months and a new hull every year.  And that surely DOES make a difference.  Obviously it's to the SMs advantage if poeple buy new kit, but NOT if they buy someone elses!  . 

PS: my laser 2 training sail IS faster than a real (hyde) laser 2 sail - but it's measurably bigger too!

We allow the Rooster sail at Lancing - Rooster sell it as a replica sail and have endeavoured to make it as similar to the real thing as possible.

They sell it as a training sail with the aim of saving your expensive official Laser sail.

There have been no complaints about this sail giving an advantage.

ive heard mumblings of this at hill head but noone has a rooster sail anyway in the laser fleet. i think they should alow it and i think it will be allowed officialy soon. i will let you know as soon as i know.

ps i sail a feva so im not entirely sure what the lasers are doing.

They are not genuine Laser sails so they must be fakes.

Oh well - I think you know what I am on about; perhaps "fake" was the wrong word - training sails if you must ...

Just to be clear for all Laser events such as opens and above of course official Laser sails are a must.

But Rooster and others sell cheaper sails for Lasers and some people are interested in using such sails for club racing only.

Club racing is generally fun racing and people are often more relaxed about it - now of course a non-Laser sail is not class legal and as such the club would need to be agreed that this breach of the class rules is acceptable for the club races.

Seems from the above that many allow this and it causes no problem; I was very interested to see the decisions of other clubs and how that had panned out.

Perhaps this will help our club with this issue.

Rick

I have a feeling that post may be a bit like a joke only different ...

Website: http://www.kaczormorgan.co.uk/ - http://www.kaczormorgan.co.uk/

Email: mailto:Ian@kaczormorgan.co.uk - Ian@kaczormorgan.co.uk

Mobile: 07717 071679

You were right, it was completely different to a joke.

Quite - I thought it was going to go along the Razor theme ...

Amazing that such an unusual name had not been indexed by Google.

I guess that is a reflection of our time that if we can't find somthing on Google we start to question it's existance ...

Rick

Bump ... any more of you had experience with these at your club?

Rick

A lot of clubs allow the non-authentic laser sails. Used to be the case with Topper sails too, until Topper dropped the price of the proper sails so much it wasn't worth any sailmaker trying to compete. I had a look at one of the new Topper sails the other day and it was of APPALLING quality. The cloth was really soft and stretchy (I'm not sure it can actually have been designed as sailcloth), the edges of the panels/patches/leech tabling were fraying badly, the seams were of uneven width along their length, ranging from 9mm to about 18mm, and the stitching was all wavy. Aparrently, the old-style Topper sails are now in big demand, so if you've got an unused one tucked away somewhere, it could be worth something!

Can't see Laser doing this though, so I guess sailmakers here will be able to carry on selling cheaper copies. The cloth the proper Laser sails are made from is (or used to be) Contender 3.8oz Polypreg, which is very good cloth and ideal for the job. Any sailmaker can get hold of this, so the type of cloth used isn't really an issue. There is no seam shape in a Laser sail apart from in the bottom seam and the vertical seam above the foot. Any sailmaker making "fake" Laser sails will just whack the seams together flat too, because it's quicker and easier, and also probably the right thing to do, so this won't be any different either.

As far as I can see, it would be difficult to make any improvements in the cloth or the shape. All the sailmaker has to do is copy the luff curve (which is easy) and the shape in the bottom seams. (easy). Any sailmaker copying Laser sails has to be selling them for considerably less than an official sail, so it's not worth them using any other cloth or trying to make any improvements, as they are building to a price.

I can't see why any club should have an issue with them being used for club racing.

The new topper sails aren't that bad, I think they are better than the hyde sails. They last longer, don't flutter at the leech as much in a breeze, and you can adjust the leech and footlines without it being a permanent change. Some people say they don't go as fast in light air, but I think this is due to needing different setting with them- loads of kicker, more outhaul, and slightly more downhaul.

Some people are trying to find Hyde sails, but the new sails are just as good IMO- and far cheaper.

The conclusion seems to be

• that the training sails are near-as-damn-it identical from a performance point of view:
  
• that it would be difficult to make anything faster without noticeably altering the shape or materials.

Add the facts that laser have in the past themselves changed the fabric (and for radials, the cut too) resulting in a range of sail designs competing at once anyway.

Why don't the class association just licence three or four sailmakers to make "official" sails within set shape limits? 

Yes.

True, and why would a sailmaker want to when they are building to a price?

Because Laser own the brand, set the rules, supply the sails and get the ££s. It's not up to the class association.

"Because Laser own the brand, set the rules, supply the sails and get the ££s. It's not up to the class association"

Why on earth not ?  It's the punters who ultimately pay for everything and decide what they do with their craft - if a group, be that the association or a local club fleet, who organise racing decide enough is enough who is going to or is even capable of stopping them ?  It's called consumer choice or power if you like and why should this market be any different - anything threatening that 'right' is surely bordering on a restrictive practice.  Keep the 'official' sail for jumping through the hoops at 'official' events perhaps but why not 'training' sails the rest of the time.  

So how independant is your class association ?  ... and how independant should it be from the manufacturer ?  Discuss ..... 

Blaze 720

The whole ethos of the laser is that everything should be the same! when you volenteer to sail a smod you volenteer to pay rediculous proces for everything because by its very nature their manufacturers can charge whatever they want for something that only they produce.
If you dont like it, dont sail a laser!

i have found the training sails harder to sail in the windy stuff. they have stiffer leeches and dont spill the wind as well, and they are slightly faster in light winds up wind. and are better at going against the tide for some reason.

I have a rooster training sail and an official sail. I find they are very different but I cant really explain how. also, the offical sails point higher

"If you dont like it, dont sail a laser!"

Having been there I, and many MANY more, dont need any more persuading  we have voted already !  The fact it's an outdated and painfully slow boat by modern standards speaks for itself.  The old chestnut that its's somehow 'fair' that overpriced sails that do not last more than a couple of windy opens in reasonable nick just does not wash anymore for more and more people.  Get yourself a good training sail if you must but don't be a slave to simple exploitation  - ask yourselves just what these sails cost to produce .... in the far east.  And then wonder exactly who its 'fair' for ,,,,, QED

Blaze 720

....We are all very happy for you as well but it's not Blaze sailors grinding on about the cost and durability of their sails is it !!  

Your 95+% of Lasers sailors who only need a new sail every couple of seasons are not generally the ones who go to the Nationals, major opens, or are active within the association are they ....  That much is obvious - they mostly stay nearer home and grumble.  The point is why should they be deprived of a good quality alternative training sail because the 5% want to keep them all in the fold ?  If they had easy access to good alternatives, accepted at local level for racing, they might then be able to get one every season if needed, see their results improve against the travelling other 5%, and then get out on the circuit themselves - even buying an 'official' sail when they do ....  

And there is no reason to shout either .... I'm pretty certain when I say that virtually every Blaze and most other singlehanders have raced Lasers at one time or another - I've had five in my time.  We resented the 'value for money' of Laser sails at the time and I only echo what is still a topic within the current Laser community.  This is not a class knocking comment, nobody is trying to rubbish your chosen class.  I'm all for one strict 'one-design' when the sail is proven durable over time and of reasonable cost.  But when the manufacturer and/or the association cannot deliver that for all owners then questions will naturally be asked of both.  Manufacture in the far-east these days means there is very considerable room for price 'adjustment' - hence the rise of training sails. This is why at my club and many others laser fleets are giving serious consideration to allowing local alternatives such as the Rooster one.  

Blaze 720

Chris 249 - Point taken - Without reservation I withdraw the comment "painfully slow and outdated" with reference to the Laser and am happy to replace it with "in my opinion painfully slow and outdated" 

It's a flippant responce of course and meant in good humour and/but this does not mean that the boat does not enjoy great racing - as in my time I did within the class many years ago.  However the key point of this discussion was not about the virtues of a particular boat - it was about the suitability of 'alternative' or 'training' sails in the situation where the average punter feels that possibly he is paying a whopping great premium for 'original' equipment without any obvious additional benefit.  I don't think there is any basic disagreement - we both appear to support the use of alternative sails which are available at very much more reasonable prices than the original ones.

I admire anyone who can make any boat really fly at Steve's pace but do find it hard to regard the Laser as anything but average in terms of performance for the grunt required.  But before passions are raised further I will also point out that the Laser characteristics are exactly what many MANY people value and seek out. It would indeed be boring a boring world if everybody drove the same car, supported the same team or ... were 'forced' to buy the same over priced sails or heaven forbid even had to race the same boat.  

Good luck with your own racing this season.

Blaze 720  

I've helped run a SMOD class association. Without money from the manufacturer, we couldn't have run the class the way our members wanted it run, which was basically a professionally run association without all that time-consuming volunteering-to-help stuff that nobody was prepared to do. Without royalties from sails and other spares, the manufacturer wouldn't have had the money to pay us. That's the way SMODs work. If you don't like it, don't sail a SMOD class. It isn't compulsory.

To me it seems very strange to compare the life of a Mylar sail to a dracron one. Dacron is ment to be stretching so you can achieve a wide variety of sail shapes ...  Not possible with Mylar. However because it stretchs sails due tend to get stretched and wear out quicker... No surprise there!!!

Do you think a large class association like the Laser is an advantage or disadvantage?

OK - lets put the Blaze v Laser discussion to one side and try and get this topic back on side.

Seems that many clubs allow training sails for use at club level without a problem.

This seems to me to abe a sensible decision; for UKLA events of course a laser sail is mandatory but for club level seems most are happy to offer a low cost alternative.

This was all I was asking; take your Laser bashing to another thread ...

Rick

Rick - if its of any help at this late stage, every club I've been a member of has allowed non official Laser sails to be used and no-one has ever complained about it. There's no discernable advantage to using them other than the £470-odd official Laser sail can be safely tucked away for big events and thus it lasts longer.

I sailed 144921 for 10 years and found that the first two-three races with a new sail were crap because it was so creased from the packaging then it was good for about 6-7 months, after that it was okay for club racing for about 2-3 years depending how seriously you were taking it.

I've always believed the difference between a 'used' sail (i.e. no longer crinkly but not stretched to hell) and a new one is about 5%. I only used a new one for big events or when I felt I could not make up that 5% performance differential by sailing better.

But then I am a northerner and thus I'm a tight fisted so and so!

As for the Laser argument - I had ten years of fun in a Laser, it wasn't without it's faults but in ten years of sailing in any conditions I could find I broke one top section, one toe strap, three travellers (i.e. wore out the rope), scrapped one gorilla tiller because it was crap and thats it. I bought the boat for £1600, got ten seasons out of it, bought one new Laser sail (£400ish), spent £150 on rope & other go faster bits and the worst damage to the hull was when the road trailer damaged the gelcoat (fixed it for a fiver...) I sold the boat for £1200. Before I sold it, I was still winning club races (fleet and handicap) regularly and finished in the top 40% of a Laser open fleet.

Whilst my RS300 knocks it into a cocked hat but the Laser cost me £950 in depreciation and new bits (including a sail) to run it competitively for ten years. I've already spent that and more on a new RS300 sail, carbon blocks, several meters of posh string and will soon be shelling out £150 for a new boom.

The reason the laser has sold 180,000+ boats is because the boat is fundementally right - it's simple, doesn't break, lasts ages and can be sailed on a tiny budget whilst providing great fun. Yes it's uncomfortable, the sails are overpriced crap etc but these are only problems if you're doing the national circuit week in week out. The Laser has done more for the popularity of dinghy sailing than any other class IMHO and it's wrong that we spend our time sl*gging off a boat, that lets face it, without which most modern single handers wouldn't exist because there simply wouldn't be a market. How many of you never sailed a laser? Or more to the point how many of you sailed a Laser early on in your sailing career and didn't think 'wow, this is lively/fun!'?

Think of it as the sailing equivalent of a Golf GTi - there's more exciting things out there, but it's always a giggle when the conditions are right!

Apologies for the long winded rant, but there's too much 'my boat is better than yours' and it detracts from a great sport.

Thanks for that ... all good input.

regards,

Rick

and mine is proof of that (despite being dead)

well said fizzi