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    Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 2:43pm

im not sugesting we should get instructors on the RYA but that we should have help to get more instructors.

I know clubs have trouble running training because they have many DIs but no SIs and have to bring these in from out side the club.

There are two if us at our club planning to try and get our SIs soon to help our club but it hasnt proved easy to sort out up till now.

 

Im just saying that prehaps this is something the RYA can do to imporve the adult racing scene. It does seem to be something that is wanted.

 

Jon most clubs have the acces to the RIBs already its jsut providing the instructors that is the bit that is needed. Ok its not going to be realy cheep but a £1000 me thinks some instructors are getting paid too much. *ducks for cover*



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Jon Emmett View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 2:46pm

Originally posted by jeffers



Hence why I am join the Blaze CA as they are doing an awful lot for the class whereas the Laser class eemed to be of the opinion that they are big enough and will always get members so didn't really make much effort.

 

What could the UKLA do that would make you join the class association ???

(I am especially interested if this is related to training!)

What does the Blaze association do that is really good???



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Garry

As Jon points out there is nothing to stop a club from employing him to run a training event at a level I can't match.  Is this forum just suggesting they get Jon through the RYA rather than direct or that the RYA should pay for coaching services?

 

From the coaches point of view is makes very little difference who is employing him. There are lots of people who want coaching and lots of good coaches, the problem is there are less people who like organising things! Interesting one job I do nearly every year seems to give me a different "cheque" each time (for example North Zone, Topper Class Association, North East Region, Yorkshire Schools...) Same kids, same venue!!!

I would also point out I think there is a difference. An instructor in my mind is someone who teaches (or "trains") people to sail (and hopefully is a good sailor themselves). A Coach is someone who teaches (or "coaches") people to race (and is hopefully a good racer themselves). I know this is not the offical RYA terminology but it is the way I believe most people think.

As top coaches are often professional then the cost for them is substantially greater than an instructor. Hence the reason those in squads get top class coaches, or coaching through the class association. However when accommodation and travel are factored in this usually costs the sailor over £100 a weekend (typically £70 for just the coaching). Would club sailors be willing to pay this???

Just to be clear is the general feeling that non RYA-squad sailors should be able to access the same quality of coaches as those which are supported? or is it more a case of there should be club coaches for club sailors?



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Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 3:33pm

Thats kind of the point, the RYA seems happy to fund the cost of coaches for junior squads but not for adults.  Now if the RYA took little or no money from these adults then that would be fair enough.  However they encourage us all to join the RYA then focus seemingly all their racing coaching attention on acheiving Olympic gold through the youth and team GBR schemes.  Those people outside these schemes are left pretty much to fend for themselves as far as improving their racing skills go.  Hence why the successes of some classes are in no small part down to the associations filling this void. One disadvantage of this is it draws people away from thier home club to fuffil their training desires further erodeing the UK sailing base. 

 Now if the regional coaches in the RYA could come to clubs and if provided with the facilities run day long courses in between running the larger zone squad weekend etc I think that would engender an improvement in skills at grass roots level which will natually trickle down to the juniors at that club when their not at these RYA squad weekends or if they can't afford to attend!  It migh also go some way toward tackling the problems that are deeemed to exist in rules adherence at club level.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 3:37pm

Personnally I think coaching is most useful when it is made class specific. Therefore coaching weekends should be offered by the class association. I am currently setting up regional training for the Laser class. However one general observation is it is mainly attended by young sailors... Whereas half the class association are "masters".

I will be going to the "topmark" coaching conference in a few weeks and would be very happy to put some "suggestions" to the coaching development officer...



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 3:45pm

The RYA supplied a coach to Whitefriars a couple of years ago to get 10 of us through our club racing coach course, so meaning we can do the coaching at the club. I can't remember the cost of this, but it certainly wasn't a huge amount.

I assume this scheme still runs, and as it gives clubs an asset (coaches) I would think that most clubs would be willing to pay for a large amount of the cost.

It has to be said that the majority of the coaching is for juniors, but not through any set policy, just because they are the ones who are keen to learn.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Jon Emmett

What could the UKLA do that would make you join the class association ???

(I am especially interested if this is related to training!)

What does the Blaze association do that is really good???



Jon,

I just found the sailors outside of club level and other experiences of CA as a negative thing. No one seemed to have good things to say.

On the training issue I am not sure how many training events the Laser CA run but the closest to me (at the time) was at Oxford (which is not actually that close). Our fleet captain at the time tried to get hold of someone through the class association to come to the club and (help) run a training event but got no response.

Again it does come down to perception, it is what do I get for my money.

So far the Blaze class seems very enthusiastic, I had a lot of advice (albeit some of it conflicting). The same thing just does not seem to be on offer. Perhaps a yahoo group or a forum on the class website might be in order. The Blaze has a very active yahoo group which is a mine of information.

They are also quite proactive (they have to be given the fact that it is a small class) whereas the Laser seems quite passive (of the join if you want to join, we don't care).

Just my observations.

FWIW the Fireball fleet had the same issue, they are going some way to encourage 'joe public' that it is worth joining the association even if all you do is club sail.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 4:13pm

Paul,

Thanks for the reply. I am obviously very dissappointed that the UKLA has a bad reputation. I will be at Sailboat if people want to come and have a moan and groan and hopefully we can make things better.

Without getting into the past I am now the UKLA Training Officer and if you write to me you will definitely get a quick response and it would be no problem getting an excellent coach to come to your club.

The laser class does have a forum (www.laser.org.uk) which is members only and perhaps not as well used as it could be.

Thank you for your obsersations, I am quite concerned at how many members the UKLA is losing each year but we are trying to make things better! For example we have the club sailor championships, just for club sailors at Weymouth in June this year.

Jon

PS Blaze 665 please do not eat any more Lasers!

 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 4:26pm
I tend to agree with Jon that its the classes that should be coming to the club to do class specific coaching and that means someone to organise it - not just the same old faces. At the last Lark training I attended I think the cost was £10 and for that I got someone regularly at the top of the National fleet. That's something tangible you get from the CA.

The issue might be as much about getting volunteers to organise and coach at these events. I don't think that Jon's £1000 a weekend is a bad deal for a professional high quality coach who has all the business uncertainty and has to work weekends, its actually not bad value. Certainly its very compareable with other business services I've had dealings with and compared to some specialists very cheap. This is in fact what you're paying for those DM coaching weekends in case no one noticed!

Many clubs' have top sailors and certainly if they got together with other local clubs could put on events at a reasonable cost it just takes someone to organise it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 06 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by Jon Emmett

The laser class does have a forum (www.laser.org.uk) which is members only and perhaps not as well used as it could be.

I think this "members only" culture is part of the problem for many organisations.

It's a difficult issue to deal with but generally I think if you offer ALL your resources to ALL then generally a good proportion of the ALL will become paying members.

Others look at it with the cup half empty outlook that by holding back some resources then that will forec people to join for the things they want.

Carrot and stick ... with the MPSCA we make everything available to everyone; you don't even need to be a member of the CA to join the training events; we work on the premis that people will want to support the CA once they have seen what it does. The only thing that requires the CA membership is to race at a MPSCA event.

This approch works well for us with forum activity and newsletter subscribers well beyond the numbers of boats ...

regards,

Rick

 

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