http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=20499 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=20499

This of course is a good thing but looking at the numbers of boats at Topper, Oppie, Mirror etc Nationals seems there are already loads of kids sailing.

Seems to me the biggest challenge is keeping them in the sport once they get to university age ... and growing the numbers of adult sailors ...

Rick

At the end of the day the RYA is interested in Olympic medals. At a young age you could consider any child may have the potential. When they are late teens the cream tends to come to the top, so they know who they want to focus on... Post youth only very few will go full time sailing and there are even less sailors in there 20s who sail full time and are not on some kind of funding.

On the flip side the UK has lots of good coaches and there is no reason why a keen club cannot just give one of them a ring or if you want class specific training contact the respective class association...

I believe the RYA remit is broader that just Olympic medals ... yes we all know that the Lottery money is a function of success but I think that the promotion of sailing for 16+ is a worthy cause ...

Rick

Thats my point!  It is up to the club to arrange and fund these events, surely as the infrastructure is already in place it would not be a huge leap for the RYA to try a few adult coaching weekends and see how they go, after all it is the adult majority membership who provide significant portion of their funding.  The cost of running such an event would be relatively low, the hosting club can provide the infrastructure in return for an increase in bar takings! All the RYA need to bring is a couple of coaches some video cameras and maybe a few RIBs.  I might even consider joining if I had access to this type of event!

Most of whose mums or dads sail, in my experience. Broadening the catchment is the issue. 

Because funding exists for "youth sports" while adults are (not unreasonably) expected to pay their own way. 

Funding is an extremelly thorny subject.  I would imagine where grants have been received from extrenal agencies they will have very specific criteria about where they can be used.  However where money has been raised form the membership the charity is free to distrubte it as it sees fit, in accordance with its constitution.  I would be suprised if the RYA constitution did not allow it to fund adult trg and coaching.

Broadening the catchment is a worthy cause but when you look at the participation levels beyon 18 there is a marked fall off. Youth classes are sailed in huge numbers ... where are all the 20 somthings?

Just shoving more people into the sport and not addressing the wastage is a missed opportunity.

Rick

It doesnt even need to fund it realy It just needs to be there to start the idea. Endorsing the idea will give it more credit with some people.

I do agree with people that the youths tha do show promise at a young age dont always go on to shine during adult hood, There is definatly a need to keep people in sailing after the parents stop giving the money for them to sail. That I think is one of the key factors to do with people not keeping on sailing.

Some interesting points, I would add...

But surely clubs are organising things for their older members its just they don't get headline publicity.

The coaching weekends organised by Dinghy Magazine (Sorry Gael & Mark) are, as I understand it, supported by the RYA - don't know to what extent though.

The RYA racing conference in December did discuss Olympic strategies but also covered many other areas, unfortunately it was poorly supported from clubs and classes (a missed opportunity to influence the RYA, I think).

Training and racing coaching are separated within the RYA I don't know to what extent that is real but I feel there is a lack momentum.

Just as visibility of what the class associations do is lacking I feel this is also the case with the RYA.  But what we need is their support to organise these activities ourselves rather than direction and spoon feeding from the centre. 

Again agreeing about the RYA levels being far to easy to obtain. I know of people doing AI courses with out being able to sail upwind properly  I think its more of the fact that instructors are unwilling to fail people. than the courses are too easy.

Well done to the RYA for the PY etc but that is just giving a comparison between boats and not to do with coaching. I think the RYA needs to give more of a 'push' to the clubs to start organising training.
From experience it can be difficult for clubs to get instructors especialy SIs I think that if the RYA gave help to clubs to train up instructors it would help with the training side of adult sailing.
It can go under the guise of if there are trainers at a club then they are able to arange more training for the grass roots youth sailors to bring more in to the RYAs reach... Sorted  *ducks for cover*

From the club perspective I definately feel there is a barrier at the SI level and I've commented on that to Dave Ritchie.  However, when I deliver a 'start racing' course at the club I'm also representing the RYA and the same goes for the 'Club & Class Coaches' who run one day class training.  This is because the RYA administer the sport and support those who are qualified (yes they could do a lot more, but perhaps we need to ask for the resources and support we want a bit more).  Check out the resources to support racing coaching on the website (I assume the're still there on the new website) if you want ideas.

As Jon points out there is nothing to stop a club from employing him to run a training event at a level I can't match.  Is this forum just suggesting they get Jon through the RYA rather than direct or that the RYA should pay for coaching services?

I don't necessarily agree with everything the RYA does and am forced to be a member by virtue of being an instructor but regardless of that you need to be engaged, otherwise how can you shape it (and the future) to your needs.

Perhaps club instructors are a resource the RYA could use to improve their profile with club members?  Maybe I'll share that with Dave Ritchie at the Dinghy Show if he buys me a beer

{QUOTE] Jefffers 

Thats my point!  It is up to the club to arrange and fund these events, surely as the infrastructure is already in place it would not be a huge leap for the RYA to try a few adult coaching weekends and see how they go, after all it is the adult majority membership who provide significant portion of their funding.  The cost of running such an event would be relatively low, the hosting club can provide the infrastructure in return for an increase in bar takings! All the RYA need to bring is a couple of coaches some video cameras and maybe a few RIBs.  I might even consider joining if I had access to this type of event!

[/QUOTE]

A couple of coaches with RIBs for a weekend is well over £1000. Personnally I would not call this a relatively low cost! 

im not sugesting we should get instructors on the RYA but that we should have help to get more instructors.

I know clubs have trouble running training because they have many DIs but no SIs and have to bring these in from out side the club.

There are two if us at our club planning to try and get our SIs soon to help our club but it hasnt proved easy to sort out up till now.

Im just saying that prehaps this is something the RYA can do to imporve the adult racing scene. It does seem to be something that is wanted.

Jon most clubs have the acces to the RIBs already its jsut providing the instructors that is the bit that is needed. Ok its not going to be realy cheep but a £1000 me thinks some instructors are getting paid too much. *ducks for cover*

What could the UKLA do that would make you join the class association ???

(I am especially interested if this is related to training!)

What does the Blaze association do that is really good???

From the coaches point of view is makes very little difference who is employing him. There are lots of people who want coaching and lots of good coaches, the problem is there are less people who like organising things! Interesting one job I do nearly every year seems to give me a different "cheque" each time (for example North Zone, Topper Class Association, North East Region, Yorkshire Schools...) Same kids, same venue!!!

I would also point out I think there is a difference. An instructor in my mind is someone who teaches (or "trains") people to sail (and hopefully is a good sailor themselves). A Coach is someone who teaches (or "coaches") people to race (and is hopefully a good racer themselves). I know this is not the offical RYA terminology but it is the way I believe most people think.

As top coaches are often professional then the cost for them is substantially greater than an instructor. Hence the reason those in squads get top class coaches, or coaching through the class association. However when accommodation and travel are factored in this usually costs the sailor over £100 a weekend (typically £70 for just the coaching). Would club sailors be willing to pay this???

Just to be clear is the general feeling that non RYA-squad sailors should be able to access the same quality of coaches as those which are supported? or is it more a case of there should be club coaches for club sailors?

Thats kind of the point, the RYA seems happy to fund the cost of coaches for junior squads but not for adults.  Now if the RYA took little or no money from these adults then that would be fair enough.  However they encourage us all to join the RYA then focus seemingly all their racing coaching attention on acheiving Olympic gold through the youth and team GBR schemes.  Those people outside these schemes are left pretty much to fend for themselves as far as improving their racing skills go.  Hence why the successes of some classes are in no small part down to the associations filling this void. One disadvantage of this is it draws people away from thier home club to fuffil their training desires further erodeing the UK sailing base. 

 Now if the regional coaches in the RYA could come to clubs and if provided with the facilities run day long courses in between running the larger zone squad weekend etc I think that would engender an improvement in skills at grass roots level which will natually trickle down to the juniors at that club when their not at these RYA squad weekends or if they can't afford to attend!  It migh also go some way toward tackling the problems that are deeemed to exist in rules adherence at club level.

Personnally I think coaching is most useful when it is made class specific. Therefore coaching weekends should be offered by the class association. I am currently setting up regional training for the Laser class. However one general observation is it is mainly attended by young sailors... Whereas half the class association are "masters".

I will be going to the "topmark" coaching conference in a few weeks and would be very happy to put some "suggestions" to the coaching development officer...

The RYA supplied a coach to Whitefriars a couple of years ago to get 10 of us through our club racing coach course, so meaning we can do the coaching at the club. I can't remember the cost of this, but it certainly wasn't a huge amount.

I assume this scheme still runs, and as it gives clubs an asset (coaches) I would think that most clubs would be willing to pay for a large amount of the cost.

It has to be said that the majority of the coaching is for juniors, but not through any set policy, just because they are the ones who are keen to learn.

Paul,

Thanks for the reply. I am obviously very dissappointed that the UKLA has a bad reputation. I will be at Sailboat if people want to come and have a moan and groan and hopefully we can make things better.

Without getting into the past I am now the UKLA Training Officer and if you write to me you will definitely get a quick response and it would be no problem getting an excellent coach to come to your club.

The laser class does have a forum ( http://www.laser.org.uk - www.laser.org.uk ) which is members only and perhaps not as well used as it could be.

Thank you for your obsersations, I am quite concerned at how many members the UKLA is losing each year but we are trying to make things better! For example we have the club sailor championships, just for club sailors at Weymouth in June this year.

Jon

PS Blaze 665 please do not eat any more Lasers!

I think this "members only" culture is part of the problem for many organisations.

It's a difficult issue to deal with but generally I think if you offer ALL your resources to ALL then generally a good proportion of the ALL will become paying members.

Others look at it with the cup half empty outlook that by holding back some resources then that will forec people to join for the things they want.

Carrot and stick ... with the MPSCA we make everything available to everyone; you don't even need to be a member of the CA to join the training events; we work on the premis that people will want to support the CA once they have seen what it does. The only thing that requires the CA membership is to race at a MPSCA event.

This approch works well for us with forum activity and newsletter subscribers well beyond the numbers of boats ...

regards,

Rick

Because lottery and (to as lesser extent) government money exists for that purpose. It is not funded from members' subs. If you are an RYA member, look at their accounts the next time they thud through the letterbox.

I believe it all rests with the clubs. Any RYA initiative should be focused on helping the clubs do 'more' for the target groups whatever age.

From my own experience, I quit sailing when I reached Uni age because it is too expensive - a set of sails is beer for a year. I know, times have changed and the cost of living is higher. It struck me then though as it does now that the youth who stay in sailing do so due to support (financial and otherwise) from their parents. Equally, younger kids don't read RYA bullets while they are out playing on their bikes - their parents read them and 'get them' involved or they sail themselves and encourage them off their own backs. I know all this has been said but, given this, it is not hard to see why the catchment is so small, the growth so stunted and we have so few ethnic and coloured sailors in the UK.

Under 16s can't buy lottery tickets, they don't spend their pocket money on joining the RYA, so we RYA members get fed up with funding for youths and a select few whose faces fit.  The RYA should concentrate on the 16-50s that actually contribute, these are the people who actually enjoy sailing and are not forced into it by pushy mas' & pas'.  Helpin out the average 16-30 sailors will help keep them in the sport, also doing stuff for all age groups will help people see some value in joining the RYA.  Most people I know who sail, did so before the Merricks/Walker period when we never won medals, its nice to win medals, but I personally couldn't give a toss whether we never won another one.

that would eliminate tallented younger sailors from the mix unless the were rich meaning the future for the sport would be very elitist. and there is another reason (aside from age limits) that under 16s don't buy lottery tickets or for that matter join the RYA  - they don't have the money, they rely on their parents

i think that instead of removing funding the RYA should get more so it can be invested in other areas of the sport. sports like athletics and football get far too much money just because they're crowd pleasers

it is seen to be an elitist sport, it doesn't have to be for financial reasons, my first boat cost the equivalent to 2 football kits & a pair of fotty boots!  any tallented younger sailors that exist mainly come from families that are into sailing anyway, these are normally quite comfortable, middle class people who don't really need grants for new boats, travelling etc.

i think its right that youngsters get reduced club membership & that clubs should be able to provide boats for training etc, but giving spoilt little brats grants so they compete in hawaii is not on!

In most cases its not a case that familys cant afford to sail mostly its they dont want to if someone else is willing to pay.

And to risk stirring things up with allanorton I think one of the main things grants should go for it teams compeating abroad because I know some amazing sailors who were willing to pay their way through sailing in england but when they were asked to go to australia to compeat in the Wolds they just could not afford to have their boats shipped out there and it seemed a shame to have people miss out on that if they deserve it.

that would eliminate tallented younger sailors from the mix unless the were rich meaning the future for the sport would be very elitist.

Errr.. having worked at a large sailing club in the SW whilst at Uni we hosted a number opens/trg/selection events for oppies 420s etc and I can promise you sailing is already pretty much the preserve of the well off at the tops of these levels.  This I feel has to contribute to the the underlying feeling of frustration felt by the 'rank and file'.  It seems the RYA are doing a good job in administering the sport and the trg and are also very sucessful at generating medals, however the point of generating that medal sucess is the peripheral spin off benefits for the more casual sports enthusiast.  You only have to look at the London 2012 campaign to realise that 'payback' into the community from these Olympic sucesses is the goal at the top level. All I would like to see is the RYA being more proactive in that 18+ age group and translating their good work for the lower level instructional area into keen and capable club sailors.  This will natrually feed more people onto the open circuits and act to raise the profile of the sport, thereby bring new people in at the bottom who perhaps would not have considered sailing as a pass-time.  I believe it is called an holistic overview in management speak

don't bother what i or anyone else thinks say what you want! (i'm just a grump old git who's never had or expected to have any funding), when I was twenty my best mate and I went to the 14 worlds on apprentice wages and I was in debt for over a year!

you do have a point there, but rather than attend one event in austrailia, the money would be better spent sending 5 times as many sailors to other venues in europe, or providing something else for a larger number of people.

I can understand this obsession with encouraging young sailors, but frankly I think some of the effort is misplaced. It is very clear that the huge effort my club puts into training young sailors merely results in the adults training them when they could be racing themselves, whilst hardly any of those trained are ending up in club races. On the other hand, those of us who do turn out year after year are left feeling rather like second class citizens. Certainly my home club could have spent the huge ammount of time, money and effort it put into youth training, a lot more wisely; as it is, dinghy racing there is in decline.

If you look at HISC as another example, there are hundreds of youth boats, and on many w/ends there will be large numbers out training, but they turn out for club races in ones or twos. Everywhere I look, club fleets are in decline, especially class fleets, and I would support the RYA a lot more if they put some effort into adressing this, rather than a bunch of elite sailors who rare frankly irrelevant to me and my sailing.

As knightmare says, ducks and runs for cover...

I agree Garry about the Onboard goals. These sailors who see it as fun as a youngster, more involved in their club/school sailing and also the Swallows & Amazons aspect of sailing are more likely to remain club sailors which is excatly what needs to be encouraged. The encouragement of the elite is great, but the grassroots need to be equally encouraged.

As as been alluded to above when you are in University and then post university and try & re/join a new sailing club it is prohibitively expensive. With joining fees, membership & boat compound fees sometimes nearly £200 for one year it is quite off putting. Even more so if you do race some of the circuit and are away too but would like to race summer evenings, the costs do not balance out. To this extent I am a member of my parental home club as it is affordable, but nowhere else near my current location due to cost which is a shame.

So I think the 21-30 age group are possibly the most price sensitive age group when it comes to sailing, as many have to consider repayment of student finances.

But I do understand the point that a lot of the money spent on a few kids could much more affectivly be spead out between more people.