Controversial Topic of the Week

Well originally I said this applied to "racing classes".

Originally posted by DiscoBall Chequebook sailing? - Parallel Universes…   Looking at my 5 years in 12s and comparing it to the likely events of trying to sail in SMOD class:   Year 1   N12 –  save up £600 for a 1970s 12.  Have enough money left over to do a small amount of the circuit and get to meet lots of new people. A the season progesses I get better and am at the front of the club fleet. Despite being the oldest boat at the champs I finish 10 places above last.The boat suits my novice abilities a new boat wouldn’t make any difference   SMOD – not going to get a loan on my wages, therefore can’t buy new or used boat.  Can’t do any practice, go racing on the circuit or meet any new friends through it. Just shiny ads in Y&Y.

Well, for the price of a Nat 12 that beat 10 boats, you could have got a Laser Radial that would probably let you beat 100+ boats at a nationals, and certainly allows you to beat guys who as similar to Steve Cockerill's pace......

The Beecher Moore quote (from '63) follows a summary of the definition of restricted classes, in an article sub-titled "restricted classes have served their purpose". It goes on to say that "never has so much effort been made with so little result as it has been in the three restricted classes of Great Britain." He reckoned in 30 years there had been 800 I-14s built, and Dinghy Year Book figures indicate that by that time there were 2,020 N12s and 1,610 MRs - total of 4,500 over 30 years. (I'm sorry I said it was something like 2,000, we had some guests living in the study so I couldn't get at my photocopy of the article and had to go from memory). Each year he reckoned 250  boats were built among the 3 classes.

In contrast, the cheap ply ODs were growing at a rate of about 6,000 PER YEAR; there were 9,000 Ents (in just 7 years!), 5,700 GPs, and 3,800 Herons.

Beecher made the interesting point that designers in a development class are restricted by the rules, whereas a designer creating a new OD has much freedom. So the "new" ODs of his time could use cheaper construction methods, have more buoyancy than some of the restricted classes, self-draining cockpits, trapezes, hollow flare in the hulls, etc etc etc. The reduced cost, and factors like the fact that the ODs were competitive even when designed for more stability and user-friendliness, attracted the sailors who largely made up the dinghy boom which gave us today's sailing.

The new wave of performance ODs, after all, were the ones who popularised traps, sliding seats and self-draining cockpits etc in the shape of the 505, FD, Osprey, Gwen 12, Hornet etc etc. Such things were banned from the restricted classes (and Aussie skiffs although they don't like to admit it.) Interstingly though, when you graph the numbers of new dinghies hitting the water, there is no evidence for Frank Bethwaite's claim that the dinghy boom was created by the arrival of the fast new boats like the 505, FD etc.

As far as I can see, the age of popular dinghy sailing was created by the ply and glass ODs, not by N12s or 505s or anything like that.

Beecher may have been wrong, and he may have had an economic incentive in what he wrote (like someone in our own time) but as an incredibly influential man on the UK dinghy scene at the time surely his opinion deserves some credit.

Also, if the N12 basically created the modern dinghy classes, then how come modern dinghies evolved in the many countries that have never had N12s?

I'm not meaning to knock the N12, which like the MR is a very important boat. In some ways N12s and MRs really seemed to lead the world at times (I reckon March Hare was the first dinghy in the world to have sections like the current norm). But to imply that they largely created the modern dinghy classes, or that you can't get a competitive 700 squid SMOD, seemed to be pushing the point a bit hard.



Edited by Chris 249

what classes are you referring to and whom is it that you have beat?

Originally posted by Chris 249 Well, for the price of a Nat 12 that beat 10 boats, you could have got a Laser Radial that would probably let you beat 100+ boats at a nationals, and certainly allows you to beat guys who as similar to Steve Cockerill's pace......

1) The comparison was meant to be to a similar, recent smod - the laser is a law unto itself.

2) The 10th from last was a reflection of my own inexperience and a not very well maintained boat - a sailor of the ability to finish at the top of the radial fleet could probably take a well maintained old 12 and finish at the front of the 12 fleet.  In fact the week after that champs I went to Salcombe regatta where a good 12 sailor in an even older boat than mine was beating the top guys from the champs. (And from further recollection I managed to get to the windward mark ahead of a past Int Canoe World Champ - sailing a brand new boat - in a couple of champs races...) 

3)I want a boat to be enjoyable to sail - personally I find the laser an unattractive and unrewarding boat to sail.

4) I bought a £200 Europe a couple of years back, technically a one design, though admittedly not strict I felt far more outclassed taking it to the champs.  there was far more difference in forward speed and pointing to the new boats compared to the 12.  That said I really enjoyed the Europe and will get a better one at some point.

Tim

Originally posted by DiscoBall Originally posted by Chris 249 Well, for the price of a Nat 12 that beat 10 boats, you could have got a Laser Radial that would probably let you beat 100+ boats at a nationals, and certainly allows you to beat guys who as similar to Steve Cockerill's pace...... 1) The comparison was meant to be to a similar, recent smod - the laser is a law unto itself. 2) The 10th from last was a reflection of my own inexperience and a not very well maintained boat - a sailor of the ability to finish at the top of the radial fleet could probably take a well maintained old 12 and finish at the front of the 12 fleet.  In fact the week after that champs I went to Salcombe regatta where a good 12 sailor in an even older boat than mine was beating the top guys from the champs. (And from further recollection I managed to get to the windward mark ahead of a past Int Canoe World Champ - sailing a brand new boat - in a couple of champs races...)  3)I want a boat to be enjoyable to sail - personally I find the laser an unattractive and unrewarding boat to sail. 4) I bought a £200 Europe a couple of years back, technically a one design, though admittedly not strict I felt far more outclassed taking it to the champs.  there was far more difference in forward speed and pointing to the new boats compared to the 12.  That said I really enjoyed the Europe and will get a better one at some point. Tim

OK, I didn't realise the comparison was limited to recent modern SMODs. Some older SMODS (Tasar for one) feature extremely competitive old boats.

I certainly agree that sailing skill is the major part of the equation, and old boats can do really, really well in development and OD classes. But I can't for the life of me work out how some classes claim to be better because they can develop (ie newer boats going faster) and also claim that the old boats are still competitive (ie old boats are just as fast).

It all seems to be very complicated and vary enormously from class to class and race to race - here a '60s Canoe is very competitive overall and can do well  or beat guys in the top 6- 12 in the world when it's flat or fluky or really windy, but given a boatspeed test in moderate breeze and low chop the old boat is dogmeat against the newer boats. Which condition do you use as the test?