Controversial Topic of the Week
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1418
Printed Date: 15 Aug 25 at 6:37am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Controversial Topic of the Week
Posted By: Chew my RS
Subject: Controversial Topic of the Week
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 10:08am
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A new thread, to spice up the midweek montony... Does the N12 have a future? Expensive, slow and for (increasingly rare) small people - it doesn't seem to fit the bill for many people. It may be celebrating its 70th birthday this year but I don't reckon it will make 80. I notice that there is a discussion on the N12's own forum about a wishlist of modifications to the rules. I half hope that none are adopted so that the class dwindles, resulting in one less class to dilute fleets... Not really, just playing devils advocate. |
Replies:
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 10:38am
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If you look hard enough you'll find that last years 2nd placed UK Cherub
Nationals team have a modified N12 hull under them. All the mods are above the water line. Also if you look a bit harder still you would see that it's shape is very similar to the majority of 12ft skiffs. As for comments about slow.... you should sail one. There's a big difference between physical speed around a course and the feeling of speed you get from a boat. They are a perfect boat for Farther / Mum / son / daughter combinations that actually want to use there head whilst sailing a race or when not sailing, rather than performing like a robot sailing an arbitrary sailing vehicle. Especially in restricted waters. And until you have sailed down the river at Putney in some breeze you have missed a huge aspect of sailing. In my opinion they be around a hell of a lot longer than any RS class. And don't forget without them you are likely not to have the mass dinghy market we have now. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Adds
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 10:46am
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Even though the RS200 has taken most of the N12 fleet. I think the N12 are great boats especially in restricted waters. But the general sailor wants a little bit more fun for the crew downwind. which equals the RS200. ------------- Cheers Dudes |
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 11:14am
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its not all about speed a slow boat can be exiting as well and a N12 is when its windy iv only sailed one once and i loved every min of it ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 11:22am
That's a favourite game in any open rule class. You can kill a class equally thoroughly by making or by not making rule changes. There's certainly a place for a spinnaker free boat, and there are plenty of Twelves being built, the class looks pretty healthy to me. |
Posted By: allanorton
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 11:28am
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I do like the look of n12s', but they're not for me, I'm 12.5 stone, so where would I find a decent 5.5 stone crew? I agree with Jacksparrow that they will be around for a lot longer than the rs200. ------------- |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 12:28pm
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"And don't forget without them you are likely not to have the mass dinghy
market we have now." Great boats, but Beecher Moore (who played a major role in the creation of a hell of a lot of the mass dinghy market we have now) once called the 3 classic British development classes (MR, 14, N12) something like "the greatest waste of time and energy in sailing history" because in their first 30 years, they got a total of about 2,000 boats between them. Certainly history seems to say that the sport did not take off as a mass market exercise until boats like GP14s, Ents, Cadets etc came out, and they are probably not the sort of boat the N12 class would like. Of course, Holt himself started designing N12s (I think......can't be bothered to look it up so may be wrong) and I'm not sure Moore was right in his criticism. But it was an interesting angle, just the same. |
Posted By: Shingle
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 12:44pm
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Mission acomplished ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 12:52pm
It's easy for a class to keep mass appeal when they change their rules (making the whole fleet obsolete) and reinvent the class every few years  . I think the development classes will be around forever because there's always going to be chequebook sailors.------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 1:34pm
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Ummm... looking at my record book in 1966. 30 years after they began
N12's numbers were at around number 2400. So I'm not sure thats quite right. There was a little thing called a WORLD WAR in the middle of those 30 years as well.
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Adds
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 1:36pm
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N12's are nothing like a cherub in identaty as they appeal to completely different people. how many cherubs to u c on the river? ------------- Cheers Dudes |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 1:38pm
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Seems that with out the N12 things would be a little different.....
OBITUARY Beecher Moore, 1908-1996 LONDON--Beecher Moore, the last surviving crewmember of Sir Thomas Sopwith's 1934 America's Cup challenger Endeavour, died last Sunday. He was 88. As business partner of Jack Holt, Moore was as much a part of the sailing industry as the sport, and changed the commercial face of sailing in Britain, where he lived, and died, in the heart of London's legal world, the Middle Temple. Born in Rochester, N.Y., Moore was taken to England when 11 months old, and his sailing began on the Thames River in the years between World War I and II. He was always competitive. His first boat was an National 12 , a reward from his father for passing an entrance exam to an English school. "I would sail this boat from early morning to late at night," Moore said. When he returned to England after attending Harvard University, he bought the 26-foot Thames 'A' Rater Vagabond. Moore added nine feet to its mast and supported the extra power developed from the rig by having his crew hang from a device he called "The Bellrope" which was attached to the mast so the crew could stand on the gunwale. In doing so, he invented the trapeze that is nearly standard on every sailing dinghy. Two years later, Sir Peter Scott (a past president of the IYRU) stood in as one of Moore's crew at Bourne End Week and was so impressed with The Bellrope that he introduced it to the International 14 class. Scott won the championship race for the Prince of Wales Cup, and the class immediately banned the trapeze and stifled its development elsewhere. Moore raced dinghies with considerable success, four times winning the Merlin-Rocket National Championship and the Hornet World Championship. He continued competing into his 60s, then devoted himself to the administration of the sport. Moore always rated the work he did on the Women's Committee -- ensuring separate racing for women in the Olympics -- to be one of his most important projects. National 12National 12 ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 1:48pm
If you think the N12 is a cheque book sailing class you'd better supply a large cheque and try winning their Champs... [sigh] There doesn't seem to be any evidence that cheque book sailing is any more prevalent in open rule boats than closed rule boats - viz the one design keelboat classes where they seem to favour a new set of sails every regatta - as blatant an example of cheque book sailing as you will ever see. It can be argued that cheque book sailing is easier and safer in SMODs than in open rules boats, because a SMOD a brand new set of sails will always be quicker, whereas a cunning new sail design in a more open rule boat, be it a development class or one of the more liberal one designs (like the Contender say), could end up slower. There are plenty of good reasons for people to choose SMODs against more open rule boats (or vice versa) but that's not among them. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 2:02pm
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Firefly History
During 1938 sailors connected to Oxford and Cambridge Universities asked Uffa Fox to design a dinghy similar to the National 12, but one design and more suitable for team racing. Uffa completed this design in 1939 and called it the Sea Swallow. No N12... No comment. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 2:22pm
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How hard have you looked Jim?
But you can never be quicker than the benchmark new boat (subject to manufacturing tolerances) - which is like, the point. And anyway who mentioned easier/safer? you only need a few boats gamble (no matter how big that gamble is) to pay off to obsolete the whole fleet.
in your opinion. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 2:24pm
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Wasn't the Lark a development of the N12? Sea Swallow didn't become the Lark by any chance? ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 4:00pm
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Yes i think you are right. My not saying this class is better that that.
My point was that with out the N12 being the first inexpensive ( relative to 14 ) National sailed dinghy we all owe the class an awful lot. And without it things would be very different.
fair enough, you know your history. Of course, my use of the Firefly example was to make the point that any other dinghy other than a 12 could well have sparked the career featured in the obituary... many great boat designers will have spent formative years in box-type (sorry don't know the correct shipwright term) but oppies, mirrors and cadets- other than the basic principles and the love of sailing these junior classes develop, I doubt their actual 'design' influences the thinking of the Morrisons and Bethwaites of the world. [/QUOTE] ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 4:04pm
Lark is a streched N12 designed by Mike Jackson in 1966.
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 4:17pm
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exactly why we sold our N12 and got an RS200! ------------- |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 4:39pm
| I'm not saying that the N12 hasn't contributed to the sailing scene we now have, or that they are bad boats. But the niche they appeal to must be very small (and shrinking). You have to be very light, quite rich (or dedictaed) and willing to go slower than most. Also, most people entering the sport today will expect and demand (albeit misguidedly) an asymmetric. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 4:54pm
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yes and most kids don't want to do Maths or English either but adults
educate them because they need to know how to add up and spell. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 5:24pm
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Not to put a spanner in the works but why misguidedly ?? Isn't it all about choice? Asymmetrics are popular for a few reasons, they are easier to sail (on the kite mainly )and they have appeal to most people My opinions only !!! ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 5:29pm
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How do you work that out? I think you will find MR alone well exceeds that figure. |
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 5:32pm
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yer and i think you will find the fast asymmetrics become unpoular as they are good fun for a year or two but then you grow up and wish you had 10-15 boats that are the same for good fleet racing so they will not last that long prpard to boats like the laser or N12
imnot saying they are all going to disaper tomerow but they will not last as long as the boats with good racing ie laser rs200 N12 ect this is what i think ------------- |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 5:34pm
I agree with jack sparrow on everything. N12's are a great boat, I have been sailing an old, wooden, overweight boat and have beaten the national champion in a race at that time, and I am not the best helm in the world! They are also attractive (unlike RS200 and SMODS) and they are lovely and smooth and small enough to be practical, so there! ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 5:37pm
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Really? Asymmetrics aren't exactly new but count the number of asymmetric classes in the top 20 of http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=44 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=44
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Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 5:41pm
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well i see 2 and most of the boats are slow with good racing ------------- |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 5:55pm
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the other thing to take into account is the asymmetrics will be limited to the clubs that are big enough to take them so the smaller clubs will have slower more traditional classes,and as there are a lot more smaller clubs than big ones they will always have slower boats. ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 5:59pm
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yer but tolanses will get biger so they will slowly let faster boats in untill they all move to a biger club ------------- |
Posted By: wompom
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 6:27pm
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Anybody whose is derogatory about the twelve has obviously never sailed one. My boat is thirty years old and, although it may not be able to win me our national championship, it is responsive and deceptively fast when sailed properly.it was also dirt cheap. As a first boat you cannot get more value for money than a second hand twelve as they are able to sail to (modified) handicap very well and give you the opportunity to beat up on lasers fireflys enterprises etc. in most conditions and even faster asymmetric boats under good helmsmanship. They are as already said particularly effective in restricted conditions, however, come to their own on a broad reach where, as most of your body retreats behind the boat, they feel incredible. Another advantage is the absolutely awesome members association whom are all ready to provide advice, if not sometimes contradictory. i bought my boat the day before an open at my club and was able to have it in sailable condition before the first race with help from other crews. And it is an overexagerrated myth that you have to weigh less than two cats to sial one. I am not saying you can weigh 30stone betwen you but different designs cater for up to 24stone crews whom are able to remain competitive. and as for previous comments regarding our discussions on changes....we are a development class therefore aim to develop!!! ------------- N12: 12 feet of perfection |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 6:59pm
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Precisely. Doesn't really square with "asymmetrics are taking over". I suspect there would have been more asymmetric classes in there 5 or 10 years ago. Now does anyone have a large pile of dusty old Y&Ys they could check? |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 7:09pm
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Well said wompom & Stefan. So there  |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 7:25pm
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Just did some quick sums took the top 60 dinghy classes on the list, divided into Asymettric, Conventional, No kite and singlehanders.
As you can see asymettric turnouts have been dropping over the last few years and last year were less popular than two handers without kites... Interestingly the averages overall have stayed much the same, so maybe all these new classes have increased the popularity of the sport overall rather than just taking numbers off the older boats. That was a suprise. 
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 7:26pm
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Oh no ... not another SMOD bashing session from the Cherub fleet ... regards, Rick BTW I think 12's look a nice bit of kit ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 7:30pm
Fair retaliation for Matt Jacksons development boat bashing I'd say... |
Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 7:46pm
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Yes but this is the Cherub forum. ------------- |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 7:58pm
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Now you guys should know me better than this by now. How long could I possible stay out of discussion with this ones title? Actually I'd consider myself pro-dev classes. Just like F1 they perform a fantastic service by getting people with more money than sense to fund the development of exotic materials and concepts and making them cheap enough for me to afford... someday. I'm also pro SMOD. The rest of those with too much money can buy the inflated priced poor quality parts thus keep the rest of the marine industry afloat. Well this is SUPPOSED to be a contraversial (although actually I'm not sure those two statements ARE that contraversial) thread! ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 8:00pm
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Does that make it right? I thought this forum was above childish tit for tat stuff ------------- |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 8:19pm
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Rick least we didn't get told off for bashing a class before it had even
been lanuched!  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 25 Jan 06 at 9:00pm
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I think if you review the thread you will find I had made no negative comments about the class ...
------------- |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 2:51am
Oh no it isn't! |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 3:00am
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More on topic....... The N12 seems to face the common crisis for development classes. That is the issue of minimum weight. If they lower it the older boats will be less competitive and the newer boats will need lighter (if there are any) crews. If the mood of the class is judged badly it can really harm the numbers. This doesn't appear to be a problem for the class now, which is doing very well so far as I can see. I have no doubt they will see the 80th year's nationals well supported. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 6:50am
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Yes, MR is facing the same issue. There are newer boats sailing with a huge mass of lead. Personally I feel the class is being over-cautious in the rate at which the minimum hull weight is being reduced, but when you have 90-odd boats turning up to Salcombe Week over a very wide age range, you do need to be careful. While I don't think development classes are ever going to be mainstream again in the way they were in the post-war era, I'm pretty confident the I14, MR and N12 are going to be around and active when the current crop of RSs are a fading memory. That is not an anti-SMOD statement; there will be a new generation of SMODs by then.
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Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 7:15am
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Allan, 18stone is around the bottom of the weight range - most crews are in the 20-22st area and there are competitive teams up to 25st. It's another of those 'class myths' perpertrated around sailing clubs because somebody heard it from a mate of a mate (and therefore it must be true...) Tim N3497 'Shiny Disco Balls' |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 7:58am
Off topic again, but I agree. The concern for the merlin goes further with extremely old boats still being very very competitive, concerns over the strength of a lighter version of what has already developed a reputation as a very strong boat and broader issues to do with the mechanics of building a boat that wide. While conservative weight reductions are being phased-in I think the main focus of any rule changes should be to reduce the cost of building...... it has never been a cheap boat. But, 90 odd boats for Salcombe and others, looking very good!!! |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 8:04am
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I believe that would be likely. Optimally wanting 20 - 25 stone makes it the same as many classes who claim more range. |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 8:16am
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I agree and joking aside I do think dev classes add a lot ot the mix, without them the technology wouldn't be developed for more mainstream restricted development boats and SMOD classes to adopt. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 8:37am
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In response to my asymmetric comments: I don't want to go off thread too much, but whilst I personally much prefer asymmetics (even on lakes), I do appreciate that they are not the 'best' solution for all boats or people. They are great sometimes, but should not be a feature of all boats as a matter of course. I made an observation about low nationals attendance for asymmetrics on the RS500 thread (I think), but I think they will grow over the coming years as these classes enter a second stage of maturity. Anyway, do you measure the health of a class by nationals attendance or boats sold annually? I don't know, probably a bit of both. Still, it's good to see I've got some debate going! |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 9:03am
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Nationals attendance, because that's a stable indicator of the number of people sailing. Boats sold annually will always make the latest popular SMOD look like a roaring success for the first year or two. |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 9:07am
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yes but you will always have quite a number of people who have those boats but choose not to race them but sail them becasue they want to an because thats waht they enjoy doing on the water. I know this because i cant stop thinking about racing when it comes to getting on the water, but my dad simply does not see the point i cannot persaude him to even do the club series, he has done the odd one just for the hell of it but thats it, he cant understand why im so into racing, but i cant understand why he isn't i suppose this is a side of sailing that we very rarely look at as the majority of people on here are into the racing side of things of some description, this being said it doesnt stop you from leisuirly sailing, i dont know if this makes much sense but hopefully so ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 9:32am
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now breathe It is true that many sailors enjoy the ride rather than the race. However, they probably favour more traditional boats, like an Enterprise or a Mirror. I am probably wrong, but I can't imagine anyone looking to buy a 700 just to go fishing! ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
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Posted By: MainlySwimming
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 9:52am
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A very interesting statistic would be to see # boats at the nationals / total # boats sold for each class. Intuitively you would expect a much higher number for the high-performance boats but I suspect you'd see some suprises where a high % of boats from some high performance classes actually spend most of their time club racing and not on the circuit / nationals. You'd have to allow a 'wrecking rate' for older boats (eg # of MRs sold is probably not representative of # MRs still on the water)...but still would be interesting
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Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 10:05am
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Chequebook sailing? - Parallel Universes… Looking at my 5 years in 12s and comparing it to the likely events of trying to sail in SMOD class: Year 1 N12 – save up £600 for a 1970s 12. Have enough money left over to do a small amount of the circuit and get to meet lots of new people. A the season progesses I get better and am at the front of the club fleet. Despite being the oldest boat at the champs I finish 10 places above last.The boat suits my novice abilities a new boat wouldn’t make any difference SMOD – not going to get a loan on my wages, therefore can’t buy new or used boat. Can’t do any practice, go racing on the circuit or meet any new friends through it. Just shiny ads in Y&Y. Years 2,3,4 N12 – upgrade to a 16 year old boat for just over a grand. New job but only a bit more cash. As boat is still cheap I can afford to do more of the circuit. With a bit of overtime I can upgrade kit piecemeal – carbon rig, better sails etc. Results improve, skills improve and get to go sailing with friends. SMOD – could just about afford to get the loan but wouldn’t then be able to afford to travel with the boat (the majority of everyone’s sailing expenses) – so limited to the club I don’t improve much or make friends outside of the club. Year 5 N12 – Job improves a bit and by transferring better kit across from old boat and begging and borrowing foils etc I can afford a new boat. Now have great boat suited to how I like to sail with great handling – worth the £6-700 more than a new SMOD. Skills have now improved to the point where I can make use of the technology – finish up in top 10 at champs. SMOD – can finally afford one but as I haven’t had much practice over the past few years I don’t do very well at champs and don’t know anyone. Class is mature and people are starting to get itchy feet for the next big thing. The future. N12 – Boat will depreciate a bit faster than SMOD, but will prob still be a competitive boat at champs level for 10 years and if properly maintained a competitive club boat for 30-40yrs - boat will always be welcome at class events so I can continue sailing with the same friends even if I don’t want to buy a new one. As boat is challenging to sail now have skills that are transferable to many other classes. SMOD – The class may last 20 years or it may last 2. Boat doesn’t depreciate much until manufacturer brings out a new model – it’s not significantly better but shiny advertising draws most of class away. Boat is now worthless (see Laser EPS, L5000 etc.) and have to find another huge chunk of money if I want to sail with the same friends in decent sized fleets. Is not much use as a first step for somebody wanting to go further than club racing. |
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 10:29am
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but fast boats are still like the lasers where you have to get the right shift but at club leval it dose not mater that mch as keeping the boat up right is more imprtant but when you get to the opliks then every one there can sail the boat well and fast so it comes down to where you go on the race corse whever you went left up the second beat maters then ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 10:45am
Yeah, but there are boats where a very high percentage of the class goes to Champs, and boats where very few do. I noticed recently that only 2% of Cherubs built since 1988 have never attended the Champs, whereas for some classes its probably closer to only 2% have... Difficult to say what health is, but new boat sales is a guide, so is second hand prices (= demand for second hand boats), so is Champ attendance. However perhaps the very best figure is one that isn't publicly available, and that's the "total number of races entered" figure in the RYA Portsmouth yardstick database. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 11:04am
Sorry I do disagree, any well looked after SMOD should be competitive for all of it's useful life. My first Laser was 20 years old and perfectly capable of winning at a club (and maybe open ciruit) level (as I proved). There was en even older Laser at my club (17,000 and something) Which regularly got close to the front off the fleet. OK Granted the Laser might be the exception when it comes to SMODs but then again maybe not, other 'restricted' classes such as the Fireball are effectively SMOD these days (you need a Winder hull to win as proven in all the major recent events, the Duvoisin hull is the same shape but does not seem to be as fast). However you can still win club level races in a 20 year old 'ball and they have a classic fleet which is well supported with it's own prizes at most major events. I would say (and this maybe wrong) but if you want good fleet racing pick a class that appeals to you and that is sailed close to you. If you want to do something different buy a development class boat. I think it is fair to say that a lot of the newer Cherubs while at the cutting edge did not cost a fortune to build proving that the 'DIY sailor' is alive and well! I am sure I will either be agreed with or shot down in flames by the Cherub fraternity...... As for me I sailed Lasers for 7 years, got to a reasonable club level and I now want a new challenge (hence the RS300 vs Blaze thread and the fact that I am 5 kilos overweight for the Laser). You pays your money you takes your choice. It will be interesting to see which SMOD classes are still around in 10 years time. The Blaze is one class that has seen a resurgence over the last few years. This has come from a very active class asoociation and has also proved that even SMODs can develop..... Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 11:17am
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Which classes do you have in mind for the latter? I can't imagine many people buy a shiny new boat in a racing class and don't take it to the Nationals. |
Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 11:31am
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Didn't DJ win the Euros and Nationals in a Duvoisin last year? I think in the Fireballs, the Winder hulls have just reached a point of saturation whereby all the top sailors use them and so they win all the main events. Also, a winder hull is likely to be easier to sell second-hand, so you're protecting your money by buying one. I'd bet there's no actual performance difference worth speaking of. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 12:11pm
For 2% I was more thinking the half/half boats, but (for instance) I bet the majority of Lasers never go to the Nationals. Its only a small minority of the Laser Sailors at my club who do. If you are a "turn up and sail" sailor at your local club in a SMOD then it makes a lot of sense to buy a new boat every few years and run it until its getting a bit maintenance heavy, then trade it in for a new one. Its the lowest effort way of running a boat, and that's a high priority for folk who have busy lives. |
Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 12:26pm
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Paul, I didn't say that a SMOD wouldn't be, undoubtedly many are pretty solidly built (if my text appeared to infer that I just didn't write it the right way- it's just whether there's a viable class to race in after a period of years. Lasers are perhaps a special case, but there's undoubtedly plenty of close fleet racing where you find 12s and Merlins - just as good as in any OD, the relative strengths and weaknesses of different designs are pretty subtle and provide an extra edge.
Tim |
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 12:33pm
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to be honist a new boat only helps you if your old boat is totaly reckt but its more of a but it makes you think you have the egd over other people at your club and this is what makes the diffrents your mental proch
its the losse nut on the tiller that makes the real diffrens ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 12:36pm
Off the top of my head I am not sure what hull he was in this year but I do know he walked away with the Nats in 2004 and I am pretty sure he was in a Winder then (14830). I could be wrong. I do know the moulds for the Winder and Duvoisin are identical (I think they were taken from the same Delange hull) so the difference (if any) could be down to materials and placement of stiffners in the hull. I believe Winder go for a very light bow and stern with lots of kevlar to stiffen it up. I was not at the worlds\euros this year so I didn't get to see his boat (he didn't have as good a week the second week though). Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 12:40pm
Sorry perhaps I got the wrong end of that stick....but you can still pick up some SMODS for around the same price as an old N12 (my first laser was £500 quid). Not had the time to look at other 'established' SMODS, I know things like the RS200 et al are still around the £2 - 3k mark. Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 12:41pm
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thats what it prob is as in the laser the AUS hulls are faster as they use a beter fibor glass than we do and the hungerun masts are stiffer than ours so it prob down to the qulaty of the materals ------------- |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 12:56pm
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So for real cheque book sailing you'd import one from AU and be a shed
load faster than every one else over here, and it's a so called STRICK ONE DESIGN. That'll be the same cheque book that buys there new sails form the middle of the role of Dacron and gets a new set every time the sails have done a windy regatta. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Living in a box
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 1:38pm
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I love the 200 because I know (to a certain degree) that I earned my position in the fleet down to how I sailed that race.
If I've learnt anything about sailors is that (many) love to bimble. They'd bimble for ever if they had the chance. Me, I've bimbled the pants off my 200 (of course within the rules) and as a consequence, there isn't an unspliced end on it. This is where the development classes come in. A development class throws another aspect into the mix, and that's the design side. A 12 sailor would probably think "I got that result because I sailed that way, in this boat that I designed/set-up/bimbled". For me, I think that sailing is complicated enough. I like the relative simplicity of going for a sail, and seeing who sailed better on the day. Perhaps in future, when I want to investigate the design side, I'd go for a 12/MR or whatever, but there will always be development classes. I think that keen sailors are natural enthusiasts, and will always want to "push the envelope"... |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 1:51pm
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You've lost me. What's a half/half boat? I don't dispute only a minority of sailors go to Nationals. If you add all the Nationals attendances you get to something very roughly around 10,000 and there are a lot more dinghy sailors than that. Where I disagree is that, at least in all the classes I have sailed in, the people buying new boats take them to the Nationals. That's why they buy them. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 2:11pm
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That would show the number of boats racing in handicap classes. While it would be interesting to know, there is a significant bias there, since the most popular classes have club class racing, at least at some clubs.
|
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 2:30pm
We won the nationals in a Duvoisin a few years back from pretty much a fleet of Winders plus a few others. Whilst there is a very good majority builder there is still room for others ... quite a healthy situation. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Living in a box
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 4:51pm
Completely depends on the boat. All new Pico owners rocking up to Nationals? Don't think so... Different boats, different reasons for sailing, different interpretation of a "healthy class"... |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 5:12pm
| Well originally I said this applied to "racing classes". |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 26 Jan 06 at 6:05pm
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the national 12 will prob live forever. it is intresting and fast. with a development class you can bond with the boat rather than the plastic things that are comming off the production line ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 12:13am
Well, for the price of a Nat 12 that beat 10 boats, you could have got a Laser Radial that would probably let you beat 100+ boats at a nationals, and certainly allows you to beat guys who as similar to Steve Cockerill's pace...... The Beecher Moore quote (from '63) follows a summary of the definition of restricted classes, in an article sub-titled "restricted classes have served their purpose". It goes on to say that "never has so much effort been made with so little result as it has been in the three restricted classes of Great Britain." He reckoned in 30 years there had been 800 I-14s built, and Dinghy Year Book figures indicate that by that time there were 2,020 N12s and 1,610 MRs - total of 4,500 over 30 years. (I'm sorry I said it was something like 2,000, we had some guests living in the study so I couldn't get at my photocopy of the article and had to go from memory). Each year he reckoned 250 boats were built among the 3 classes. In contrast, the cheap ply ODs were growing at a rate of about 6,000 PER YEAR; there were 9,000 Ents (in just 7 years!), 5,700 GPs, and 3,800 Herons. Beecher made the interesting point that designers in a development class are restricted by the rules, whereas a designer creating a new OD has much freedom. So the "new" ODs of his time could use cheaper construction methods, have more buoyancy than some of the restricted classes, self-draining cockpits, trapezes, hollow flare in the hulls, etc etc etc. The reduced cost, and factors like the fact that the ODs were competitive even when designed for more stability and user-friendliness, attracted the sailors who largely made up the dinghy boom which gave us today's sailing. The new wave of performance ODs, after all, were the ones who popularised traps, sliding seats and self-draining cockpits etc in the shape of the 505, FD, Osprey, Gwen 12, Hornet etc etc. Such things were banned from the restricted classes (and Aussie skiffs although they don't like to admit it.) Interstingly though, when you graph the numbers of new dinghies hitting the water, there is no evidence for Frank Bethwaite's claim that the dinghy boom was created by the arrival of the fast new boats like the 505, FD etc. As far as I can see, the age of popular dinghy sailing was created by the ply and glass ODs, not by N12s or 505s or anything like that. Beecher may have been wrong, and he may have had an economic incentive in what he wrote (like someone in our own time) but as an incredibly influential man on the UK dinghy scene at the time surely his opinion deserves some credit. Also, if the N12 basically created the modern dinghy classes, then how come modern dinghies evolved in the many countries that have never had N12s? I'm not meaning to knock the N12, which like the MR is a very important boat. In some ways N12s and MRs really seemed to lead the world at times (I reckon March Hare was the first dinghy in the world to have sections like the current norm). But to imply that they largely created the modern dinghy classes, or that you can't get a competitive 700 squid SMOD, seemed to be pushing the point a bit hard. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 12:23am
I don't know whether Australian Lasers are actually faster, but I DO know for a fact that in Lasers (full rig and Radial) you can be top 10 nationally and win titles against world-class (ie world champions) opposition with a dead-stock boat, with a sail, board and spars picked up from the top of the stack without any checking. AND you can win a Youth Nationals, an Open Districts (ahead of the Open world champ), finish 5th overall at the nationals (as a youth) and get into the top 25 at the Open worlds, all with one racing sail and one 15 year old training sail. PS; yes, the worlds was not sailed with the same sail - boats and rigs are supplied at the worlds. But the entire campaign - including winning a world team place by beating the world Open champ - was sailed with one racing sail. |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 7:04am
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what classes are you referring to and whom is it that you have beat? ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 8:45am
I really can't be bothered to do some serious research on this, but lets take the Laser 4000. According to the Racing Classes Review L4000 4658 was built in 2003. Looking at the last two Champs these are the boats with a later sail number that attended one of those Champs:- 4682, 4709, 4804, 4637, 4641, 4674, 4682 That's 7 out of 24 up to the latest sail number that did attend. No doubt some of those boats will turn out at Champs under future owners, or when the event comes round to a more local venue, but I think that goes a way to proving my point. That same calculation fror the N12s shows 11 boats out of 13 attending the Champs, and about three times as many boats doing two champs running. What would be an interesting exercise would be to take a bunch of classes and calculate how often the regular top sailors change boats, which might be an index of the degree of cheque book sailing within the classes concerned. |
Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 10:11am
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1) The comparison was meant to be to a similar, recent smod - the laser is a law unto itself. 2) The 10th from last was a reflection of my own inexperience and a not very well maintained boat - a sailor of the ability to finish at the top of the radial fleet could probably take a well maintained old 12 and finish at the front of the 12 fleet. In fact the week after that champs I went to Salcombe regatta where a good 12 sailor in an even older boat than mine was beating the top guys from the champs. (And from further recollection I managed to get to the windward mark ahead of a past Int Canoe World Champ - sailing a brand new boat - in a couple of champs races...) 3)I want a boat to be enjoyable to sail - personally I find the laser an unattractive and unrewarding boat to sail. 4) I bought a £200 Europe a couple of years back, technically a one design, though admittedly not strict I felt far more outclassed taking it to the champs. there was far more difference in forward speed and pointing to the new boats compared to the 12. That said I really enjoyed the Europe and will get a better one at some point. Tim |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 11:08am
As mentioned, the classes are Laser (big rig) and Laser Radial. The big rig stuff was some time ago, but certainly at master's level you can still beat guys like Adam French (3 world Apprentice and Masters titles, 2nd this year) and Dave Early (world Apprentice champ last year, 4th this year) regularly on a '78 boat - as was proven in our Masters states earlier this year. These guys are not Schiedt or Ainslie - but Adam for instance is often up with the female Olympians, and he would beat well over 90% of Laser sailors. So only a minority really have cause to complain about their gear. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 11:18am
OK, I didn't realise the comparison was limited to recent modern SMODs. Some older SMODS (Tasar for one) feature extremely competitive old boats. I certainly agree that sailing skill is the major part of the equation, and old boats can do really, really well in development and OD classes. But I can't for the life of me work out how some classes claim to be better because they can develop (ie newer boats going faster) and also claim that the old boats are still competitive (ie old boats are just as fast). It all seems to be very complicated and vary enormously from class to class and race to race - here a '60s Canoe is very competitive overall and can do well or beat guys in the top 6- 12 in the world when it's flat or fluky or really windy, but given a boatspeed test in moderate breeze and low chop the old boat is dogmeat against the newer boats. Which condition do you use as the test? |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 11:45am
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Id agree with you that its perfectly possible to do what you describe without 'cheaquebooking' but you cant deny that a number of people still do it. Whether or not it makes any real difference to the speed, people are still driven to spending more money to get the top kit and surely this is even worse than the 'cheaquebooking' people moan about in development classes where people spend their money and actualy see a return from it.
------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 12:05pm
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Did they actually make those 24 boats though? Some manufacturers are well known for "bigging up" classes by skipping sail numbers. Whether that applies to the L4000 I have no idea.
|
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 12:26pm
Chequebooking in any class is a brilliant thing which should be encouraged. Some people get to blame their gear (which they seem to enjoy) and then work hard (which they seem to enjoy) so that they can earn enough to buy some new gear (which they seem to enjoy). This allows lazy cheap guys like me to get lots of good cheap second-hand gear, which allows us to spend more time sailing and training, and less time working. It's wonderful!  The only problem is that there is a limit to their credulity. Whenever people complain about losing races because of their slow 170,000 series Lasers, I make the kind offer to trade it in for my 52,000 series Laser. I tell them kindly that I'll only charge an extra grand for the swap. For some reason I have yet to find a taker. Strange, that. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 12:48pm
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Chris is exactly right - chequebook sailing is a wonderful thing for the less wealthy in any class, provided they have the sense* to realise that talent beats money. The concept is only a problem when its used as FUD to put people off one class or another...
For instance a Rohan Veal has a deliberate policy of replacing his foiler Moths regularly to help grow the fleet. If I get the time and enough old Champ results I'll try and analyse how often people change boats in different classes and if there's any pattern. I suspect it will turn out to be quite random though. Lot of work that sort of thing, but it can throw up interesting info... I noticed lat year doing something else that there seems to be a distinct correlation between how many women sail in your asymettric class and how many boats turn up for the Champs, but not much between how fast it is and the turnout. It means, Class Committees, that your number one priority is getting women to sail your boat! [I did type common sense, but corrected myself:-) ] |
Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 12:48pm
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I don't think the attitude of any of the dev people on the forum is that dev is better than OD - more just that we get sick of the same myths coming from people who haven't experienced this part of the sport. I suspect if I'd sailed a radial champs as a novice I wouldn't be in the sport - from the bit of laser sailing i've done, racing against them in handicap fleets and competing in other big OD fleet (eg J24 Euros) I've found a lot more aggro, bumpercars and 'invented rules' than in the 12s. i wonder how many newcomers who are advised to sail ODs leave the sport for exactly this reason. There are more reasons to sail than the worthiness or numbers of the class/event - bar a few who earn a living we all sail for fun...
|
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 12:54pm
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this interclass sabre ratlling is a total waste of time! There are very few, if any, classes be they one design or development where a boat over 10 years old wins a championships. This is not to say that old boats are always incapable, but the fact is if you have designs on winning a champs you tend to own a newer boat. To say that older development class boats are less competetive than newer ones is also not necesserily true. Provided the hull shape is close to the modern standard there is no reason why an older boat can't compete given a decent rig. In classes such as the Merlin where hull shape has not changed significantly for 16 years you can buy a very competetive boat for about £3000-£4000. Indeed we did quite well in 2004 with a 14 year old Turner Tales, including winning the Midland circuit, and coming 11th in the Tiger trophy in 2005. As for the National 12, there will always be that niche section of the market who want one. The danger that the class faces is not turning itself into something that it's not, and the thread on their forum about a "concept" boat and the ideas expressed look very dangerous to me as an outsider. The 12 is a non spinnaker boat, and no doubt that is why some people choose to sail one. The idea of putting an assymetric on seems utterly ludicrous to me, especially as there is already a 12ft high performance assymetric boat in the shape of the Cherub. Why turn the class into another one? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 12:54pm
Rotten 'ell Stefan, there's a limit to how much digging I'm prepared to do. Your accusation. You can prove it fairly readily: go through all the open meeting reports on Laser 4000 website and list all the boats in every event and see if the gaps stay or they start to fill. I'd guess you'd get between a qurter and a third doing opens but not Champs. Then you can also search up club results at the bigger 4000 clubs, or maybe try a FOI request to Laser! |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 1:17pm
I think if a concept N12 was looked at it would be more along the lines of a NS 14. still NO kite just developed further. Without diligent rule changes you can also develop your self into a corner and eventually do yourself a lot of damage, and then have very sticky rule change decisions. pic NS 14 [IMG] ../photos/forum/JackSparrow/2006-01-27_131706_dscn2996.jpg[/ IMG] ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 1:18pm
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Why for all that is holy doesn't it load my pics!!!!!!!! ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 1:20pm
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Jimc, I would be most interested in the results should you choose to do that. I can save you the trouble for the Mustos as we list all owners in public on the web. I see the Lark class have started to do this also. http://www.mustoskiff.com/sailors-database.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/sailors-database.htm There are a few gaps (2%) due to boats changing hands and us losing track but on the whole we know who owns every boat. We even list 099 that was sent to the great dinghy park in the sky by a road accident. Rick
------------- |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 1:28pm
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Sad. Of all the ways for a dinghy to go.... ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 1:47pm
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As the muppet who suggested the assymetric on the 12 forum, I had/have
no intention of pointing the class down that route, if I even had the
power to do so. What I can see is that a lightweight (i.e under 60 kilos rigged, which is what my last boat would have weighed had I removed the lead) hiking assymetric boat would be a hell of a blast. There are enough classes out there already, so if I do it, it will be for my own entertainment. Lead is easy enough to take out if I wanted to go play... The reason I started the thread is that I believe is that the class has run out of things to do in the current ruleset and the only reason the thread on the N12 discussion board existed was to get an idea of what changes the members would like to see (if any). There would have been no point in a concept boat if it was a waste of materials and the class wasn't going to move in that way. |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 1:47pm
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Bad luck about the photo but y and yting have to pay for their server.... and I bet bite for bite it's not cheap. I never saw a NS14 but I consider a concept 12 could be like the tiger moth..... a moth made bigger for 2 - before they became planes. With wings the hull could be narrowed to a pencil, the weight to no limit and a couple of massive fully battened high aspect sails. The point has been made already though - it wouldn't then be a N12 and the appeal would be a different one to a different demographic. Alot of people seem to be commenting on the boat without having sailed them. Ive only been out in one a few times but I'm convinced the racing is a tactical battle field, and a potentially wet one at that. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 2:03pm
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I don't think a concept N12 would be anything like a Tiger Moth.... just a
bit more like this ( lets hope the link works!) http://ns14.sailoz.net/2005nsw/index.html - http:// ns14.sailoz.net/2005nsw/index.html ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 2:14pm
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I have never, at any point, asked you to do a thing! I'm just pointing out the flaws in your methodology. The fact that many classes and manufacturers skip sail numbers is very well known. I wouldn't call it an "accusation"; there is no law against it.
|
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 2:20pm
Stefan; do you have any specifics on this as last time I raised this I was told I was wrong ... regards, Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 2:22pm
| Oh yes. Am I going to tell all on a public forum? Oh no. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 2:28pm
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If your are stating facts then you have no problem ... PM if you like ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 2:39pm
| Thank you Rick but with respect, I'll make my own decisions on what to say and what not to. I am not going to kiss and tell on this one. Conclude what you like. |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 3:16pm
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I'm actually seriously considering designing one these and getting one of your class mates to make it for me (he doesn't know it yet though!). I've even started the preliminary design. You can also stick an asymmetric on it and call it a MG14. Without the kite the handicap is about 1025 (converting from the Aussie system) and thats with an actual (i.e.not measured) sail area of just 9.3m^2. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Jan 06 at 4:05pm
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Fair enough, this is an issue that interests me as generally people use sail numbers as a measure of boats built and this was a fair assumption when a 3rd party such as the RYA used to issue certificates. With SMOD's that have no certificates we have no idea of the real numbers of boats out their. IF some manufactures do this I personally think that it's a double edged sword; If you pad the numbers it looks like you have sold loads but then it also looks like no-one goes to events as only the real boats can turn up ... I suspect someone with eagle eyes who trawlled through open and club results could pretty soon point the finger as I am sure there cant be that many boats that never club race ... Rick ------------- |