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    Posted: 29 Dec 05 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by Chris Noble

im a bit concerned about the integral bow sprit on the voodoo could be very expensive to repair when it snaps unlike many other retractable sprits where you would just buy a new one.... must make towing a complete swine aswell

From their discussion of this topic on SA, they want to keep it simple to start and had some concern about complexity and weight. Ausies seemed to think that all of us "Northerners" were a bunch of pansies and should just get with the program. My big problem with a fixed pole is if you use a marina to launch and land. That extra 2m of length could get dicey at times.

The boat just hit the water this week so we should give them a little tome to sort it out.
Live large, love life, and sail fast.
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Chris Noble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris Noble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 05 at 7:05pm
yeh but even with the said "fixed" poles on the 18s and the 12s and Rs they still come off the boat for travelling etc, that thing has it bonded to the hull! They also have wires supporting the loads on them aswell to prevent snap-age

Edited by Chris Noble
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 05 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Chris Noble

that thing has it bonded to the hull!


Any evidence for that? As for wires, that pole doesn't look long enough to need them.

OK I've only sailed with a fixed pole boat once but it didn't seem a big deal. Easier for launching in some ways.



Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris Noble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 05 at 7:47pm
i suppose there is no evidence but it sure does look that way
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Calum_Reid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 05 at 7:49pm
I dont think it is moulded on from other pic ive seen of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sandy Hook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 05 at 7:53pm
this explains it
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sandy Hook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 05 at 7:56pm
or this

Edited by Sandy Hook
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Calum_Reid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 05 at 8:00pm
ta
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 05 at 12:42am

Chris,

Good to hear from you.  I'll try one more time to answer your concerns. 

First,  It turns out that I did indeed talk about the fully battened main and lightweight hull.  Forgive me.  I was wrong.  I didn't realize that the instructions I had written for our new sailors explaining how to launch their new Swifts from the beach (alone) would be taken as a devious attempt to deceive the skiff buying public.  I was targeting these instructions to our members who have mostly come from 505s, FD's, cats, and keel boats!  Anyone who reads it will likely see that I was pointing to the differences that light hulls and battened sails pose when launching that are not common in the boats they had been sailing.  This may be the mother load of “out of context”

As for Huntington Lake:  There was one Asymetrical Canoe and one Swift Solo there--no Mustos, no IC's.  Anders and I had a great week of sailing against each other.  When it was over I concluded that it was not likely that a Swift would be able to beat a AC in 15 knots of breeze upwind.  At the same time I pointed out the Swifts strengths were downwind and especially two sail reaching.  I believe that will remain the case but we will get much closer to the AC upwind as the boat evolves and we get some top sailors in the class.  On this subject, many have pointed out that a canoe is not a skiff --maybe even you Chris!  That is why I am careful to say "single-handed skiffs".  Further, an AC with Anders at the helm is a bloody fast boat.   It is the one single handed mono that I am not willing to bet even odds against--at least in above 10 knots with Anders at the helm.

I don't think you'll find IC sailors (who've raced the Swift) who believe that an IC is faster around the track than a Swift in reasonable conditions.  That doesn't mean that Bob Lewis can't find his way around the giant invisable holes at Jerhico in drifting conditions and beat me at least part of the time--he can.  I don't think he will race for pink slips in normal conditions, however.     

I've said the following about as many ways as I know how but I'll try one last time to make it more clear.  When the wind speed is high and steady in direction and velocity, I believe a wide, light boat, with lots of sail area will always beat a narrower heavier boat in a straight line--all other things being equal,  (Perhaps you can find some wording that will make my beliefs easier to understand)  However, as the wind varies in direction and velocity (gusty), I believe that this formula becomes more obscure.  As the amount of movable ballast is reduced, gusty conditions begin to seriously erode this theory.  When the workforce drops to one person, I think the theory is still valid but stops at about 6'4" max for highly powered skiffs like the Swift and 5'4" max if it requires 10 knots to keep you full out.  Narrower than that will likely be slower in those same conditions—all other things being equal.  I point it out because I'm trying to share information. I use the math I did earlier to demonstrate why I believe it is valid.  The reason for sharing information is not to convince anyone but rather to help save time for those beginning the design process by presenting some possibilities to think about. The value of any discussion on design is increased when “feelings” are replaced with numbers and facts.  I provided numbers to explain why I believe wide single-handers won’t work well and it would be really good if the discussion were to change in the direction of that kind of information.  Certainly there is room to dispute the numbers or to provide reasons why these are not the variables to consider.  The claims that other designers disagree need to be in this context to have any validity at all.  If you post your full name, I will ask our mutual friend Paul to comment on the theory I have expressed in this paragraph.

As for the claim the Swift is "the fastest single handed skiff available" --I believe that and am willing to put my money where my mouth is.  I would hope that every other skiff class would express their doubts about my statement and put up some money as the Mustos are about to do.  This difference of opinion is what makes a yacht race fun.  The only single-handed mono out there that I am not willing to put up money against is the AC (the other three sail single-hander) unless we agree that we will not sail in above 10 knots of breeze.  Even than, I will need to find someone of Anders level to hope to pull it off if he is the skipper of the AC.

That having been said, I would rather have the Swift known as the "most tactical and easiest to sail skiff" if I had to choose between the two.  Perhaps it is my ego talking but, for now at least, I don't believe I have to.  Incidentally, it is my observation that the AC is nearly as tactical as the Swift.  Further, I believe that the sailing world may be underestimating the value of the sliding bench as a method of developing righting moment.  We will soon find out because Anders is fitting an AC with racks and a trapeze.  His racks will have an intermediate bar to deal with the righting moment “blind spot” that many racked skiffs have.  This should be a quality test by a quality guy with great analytical skills.

Chris, I don’t think you will ever be convinced about the integrated sheeting system (in spite of all the testimony and results) so I won’t waste my time.  If anyone is suggesting that this is the same as the system of connected tails that Steve Clark described, they are simply ignorant of the facts and have not been paying attention.

In the end, if you know of a single handed production skiff that is faster around the track, get it to Seattle and take some of my money home with you.  We’ll both have a lot of fun and I’ll even put you up and feed you for the weekend (Jane’s a great cook). 

Bram 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Dec 05 at 7:13am
Hmm, a light boat will always be faster than a heavier boat. No arguments there surely. And a wider deck beam boat will always be faster than a narrower boat until it gets way into major control problems. And a narrower waterline boat will almost always be faster than a wide waterline boat until control limits too. These things are so well established that there ought not to be any great argument about them.

The AC/IC experience suggests that sailors can handle pretty wide boats with pretty narrow waterline beam - there is not an enormous amount of difference between sailing a boat with wings and a boat with sliding seat as far as straight lines are concerned: I have both: I know. A trapeze does up the ante some in that in my opinion you can drive a wing or sliding seat boat harder because you're more secure on the boat. I have plenty of trapeze time too. Then lastly we can add the fact that the IC/AC hull shape has plenty of room for improvement.

So there's some evidence to suggest that "too wide t handle" is not really kicking in at Musto Skiff/RS700 beam.

Now I'm not mug enough to try and predict which the fastest of all the current designs are and which are hitting the best compromises. But I'll bet its possible to go faster than any of them. I also am beginning to have my doubts about very big sails: I have an idea that dinghies are starting to approach the sort of performance area where efficiency is becoming more important than brute power. After all how much rag is that AC carrying uphill?
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