New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Put these factors in order ....
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Put these factors in order ....

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4567>
Author
Scooby_simon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 02 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2415
Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Put these factors in order ....
    Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Remember we are talking about small speed differences here.  If someone has a 5% jump in boat speed on the fleet, they then can just sail away !

Indeed. Even the 1% difference Bruce is talking about is a massive boatspeed advantage in the classes I've sailed lately. A 1% boatspeed advantage just isn't there to be had. In some of the offshore classes where you continue on the same tack for long periods, it isn't unusual to sail for 30-40 miles and only gain or lose a boatlength or two. Owners will pay large amounts of money to change boats to save 0.1% percent on their handicap.

The last Fastnet I did in Sigma/38s, after 600 miles and four days of racing, four of the class (us included) finished within a couple of minutes. That is how small the boatspeed differences are in some classes.  

 

As you say; in the classes you sail it's a massive difference, but I assume they tack quickly and don't kill you for bad boat handeling to the same degree.

 

Remember 1% is 10m in a 1000m leg; in a cat you loose 20m in a slightly bad tack.  How much of a shift do you need to gain 10m ?  How much more pressure will give you ther extra 10m.  This is why I think other things are more important when the front of the fleet is already going the same speed (well nearly)

Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 21 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Jamie

Singlehanded sailors are split into to groups, those who would be crews and those who would be helms.

Crews in singlehanded boats are the ones that shout and swear at themselves for getting the tack wrong.

The helms are the ones who wait patiently for themselves to finish what they are doing and then queitly berate themselves at an almost inaudible volume for failing to predict what they wanted to do, then they check for weed on the rudder. 

Seems I pass for crew and helm then ...

Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6662
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by Jamie

Crews in singlehanded boats are the ones that shout and swear...


The helms are the ones who wait patiently...



Think you got that the wrong way round mate. Its natural crews who calmly evaluate a problem and find answer, natural helms who shout and scream...
Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 1:37pm

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

As you say; in the classes you sail it's a massive difference, but I assume they tack quickly and don't kill you for bad boat handeling to the same degree.

It is slightly confusing to agree with someone and then find them telling you why you are mistaken. I thought we were both arguing that boatspeed differences are less significant than other factors, at least in our own classes. I wasn't discussing boat-handling.

But in terms of boat-handling, S/38s are heavy and relatively underpowered boats that most certainly don't accelerate quickly from bad tacks, and any kind of keelboat will bite you hard for boat handling errors downwind, especially in a decent breeze.

 

Back to Top
Offshoretiger View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 05
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Post Options Post Options   Quote Offshoretiger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by NeilP

OT - you know my thoughts on rig tweaking. If it's not right, do something about it! However fast you may be, if the boat under you is not working you have to fix it. Otherwise you might as well tie off all controls on shore and just sail. Doesn't sound much fun to me!

Neil

Yeah Neil I agree if the boat doesnt feel right and its not sailing right then you need to sort it. But usually when Jamie tells me to shut up and sail is when we are half way up a beat and the boat feels OK but not great and we arent loosing on the other boats around us. At that point if I try and tweak to get the boat to go from feeling fine to feeling great we usually end up going slower cos I stop concentrating on driving. So it tends to be faster for me to keep my mind on the job.

And to be fair I do this to helms as well when Im crewing. Espesially helms that always bear away when they put there head in the boat to look for string.

 

...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!......
Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 3:34pm

Originally posted by Offshoretiger

At that point if I try and tweak to get the boat to go from feeling fine to feeling great we usually end up going slower cos I stop concentrating on driving.

Do you have to concentrate on moving your feet when you walk? Helming should be as natural as walking. If it isn't, you need to spend more time at the tiller. You can bet Ben Ainslie isn't "concentrating on driving". He is thinking tactics, wind-shifts, current, other boats and boat-tune. 

That said, one of the best things I found about being the driver but not the skipper on other people's big boats is that I could just concentrate on making the boat go fast. All the other stuff involved in running a boat with 9 people on board was someone else's problem, whereas on my own boat I had to deal with it as well as steer. Nevertheless, "making the boat go fast" means talking to the trimmers all the time to get the boat going, not just waggling the wheel and staring at the tell-tales.

Back to Top
Jamie View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 164
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Offshoretiger

At that point if I try and tweak to get the boat to go from feeling fine to feeling great we usually end up going slower cos I stop concentrating on driving.

Do you have to concentrate on moving your feet when you walk? Helming should be as natural as walking. If it isn't, you need to spend more time at the tiller. You can bet Ben Ainslie isn't "concentrating on driving". He is thinking tactics, wind-shifts, current, other boats and boat-tune. 

No but she does have an unfortunate tendancy to walk into things. And is constantly trying to walk under cars.

Is driving a car as natural as walking? No you constantly have to look ahead and concentrate to keep controll. If you look into the car to say find the button on your radio you do so as quick as possible so as not to loose concentration on the coming road.

When driving your boat you have the extra complication of the road being constantly unstable. and the other road users not traveling on the same linear path as yourself. So if you look in to the boat to tweak the lifter, pull on some shroud or ease the forestay back you have to be aware that you are taking your eyes of the road. I know that I can't steer as good a path through the water when I'm trying to find the string that ajusts the lower shrouds. So in a situation that we will definatly loose more by fiddling when we are doing pretty well in the race I will tell my helm that we WILL loose more than we MIGHT gain.

Whether she listens to me is entirley her choice. 

Back to Top
Offshoretiger View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 05
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Post Options Post Options   Quote Offshoretiger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Offshoretiger

At that point if I try and tweak to get the boat to go from feeling fine to feeling great we usually end up going slower cos I stop concentrating on driving.

Do you have to concentrate on moving your feet when you walk? Helming should be as natural as walking. If it isn't, you need to spend more time at the tiller. You can bet Ben Ainslie isn't "concentrating on driving". He is thinking tactics, wind-shifts, current, other boats and boat-tune. 

That said, one of the best things I found about being the driver but not the skipper on other people's big boats is that I could just concentrate on making the boat go fast. All the other stuff involved in running a boat with 9 people on board was someone else's problem, whereas on my own boat I had to deal with it as well as steer. Nevertheless, "making the boat go fast" means talking to the trimmers all the time to get the boat going, not just waggling the wheel and staring at the tell-tales.

Im well aware I need to spend more time on the tiller, spending less time in borrowed boats would also be great cos I could spend less time trying to remember if the blue string is in/out or up/down on the jib cars and which color the kicker is on this boat 

As you said above being the driver but not the skipper on a big boat is easier than running the whole crew. When Ive got main in one hand, tiller in the other, one eye on the tell tales, one eye on whats around me, one ear listening to my crew, part of my brain thinking about how the boat feels and part of my brain thinking about what I want to do next its no wonder that working out what bit of string might help, finding a spare eye to spot it and a spare hand to ajust it can sometimes slow me down a bit......

As for trying to walk under cars, there is no traffic were I live!! And I'll probably be even worse after a few more months in USAland, even if I remeber to look, Ill look the wrong way



Edited by Offshoretiger
...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!......
Back to Top
NeilP View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 271
Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 6:10pm

OT - you're missing the real point. When Jamie tells you not to worry about it, it has nothing to do with his careful analysis of the potential gains/losses as he claims, and everything to do with the fact that, being a stoodent AND a Sloth, he has absolutely no idea what's wrong or how to fix it!

It's all in code, like everything crews say

No FD? No Comment!
Back to Top
Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Aug 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 6:27pm

Originally posted by Jamie

So if you look in to the boat to tweak the lifter, pull on some shroud or ease the forestay back you have to be aware that you are taking your eyes of the road.

We are talking at cross purposes. The original point I was responding to was crew saying "Shut up and steer". My argument is that it is the helm who is in the position to call overall boat tune. Crew just doesn't have the same feedback the tiller provides (and I've done plenty of crewing as well as helming). Who pulls which string is another level of detail. The helm shouldn't be doing things the crew can do and the boat should be set up so the crew can do as much as possible upwind.

If the helm is bobbing about trying to pull strings then either the boat is laid out wrong or the helm just needs to learn to do more than one thing at a time. The helm ought to know exactly where controls are without having to look for them. Nobody said it is easy.

I once talked to the guy who has won more Salcombe Merlin Weeks than anyone else in the last 15+ years. Sailing at Salcombe often involves long short-tacking sessions to keep out of foul tide, every 20 seconds or so for upwards of a mile. Before every tack, he eases kicker, tightens main sheet, roll-tacks the boat, eases mainsheet while head to wind, pumps the main back on as the boat is rolled upright, centres the traveller and pulls kicker back on  as the boat accelerates. All of that every 20 seconds for 15 minutes or so. I get exhausted just thinking about it.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4567>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy