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Put these factors in order ....

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 9:21am

Originally posted by Offshoretiger

So when Im driving and I start saying it all feels slow my crew usually tells me to shut up and drive and stop worrying about it.

Bad advice I think. IMO the helm is the only person who can feel if the boat is going well and in particular if it is under- or over-powered. I think on a bigger boat, apart from waggling the tiller, the helm's main job is coordinating the trimmers. Certainly as a sportsboat helm, I've often had to stop crew cranking everything in upwind in powered-up conditions. What looks pretty isn't always fast. This all assumes that the helm has the experience to know when the boat is right and when it is not. This takes time to learn and is quite class-specific. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 10:21am

For me, it keeps coming back to boatspeed. The best tactical sailor in the world won't win races if his speed is poor, cos everyone will just run away and refuse to play! Try covering tactics when the boat you want to cover is faster than you, and therefore ahead of you.

I don't honestly think it makes any difference whether we are talking about the front, middle or back of the fleet. The priorities are the same, and speed is king.

OT - you know my thoughts on rig tweaking. If it's not right, do something about it! However fast you may be, if the boat under you is not working you have to fix it. Otherwise you might as well tie off all controls on shore and just sail. Doesn't sound much fun to me!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Starbuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 10:34am
Originally posted by Scooby_simon


You are missing the point IMO; the speed difference we are talking about might be 1% (max); all the top boats WILL be going the same speed (almost);

So take it cat sailing on a small/medium sized course of say 15km upwind/dw;

that is a difference of 150m; that is one bad tack !, 2 bad Gybes or going the wrong way up one beat !

Simple as that.  

Even if a tack costs 150m in fast cat sailing(I don't know, but let's say), the difference between a good and a below average tack won't be this much. The 150m is the difference between tacking and not tacking.

Take the situation coming off the start line in this fast cat race. Everyone gets an equal front row start. After 20 seconds, the boat with 1% less boatspeed than the top guys start to fall into the boat below. Pretty soon they're struggling for clear air. They tack and have now lost 150m on the leaders plus the 1% in boatspeed. Starboard tack is lifting though, so the slow guys go off on a header for a bit and tack back after a minute. They are now 300m plus the 1% behind. The very fastest boat who is .1% faster than the other top guys has by this time squeezed out the boat to windward and has a clear lane to tack which is nice because the wind has shifted to the left. The leader does his first tack and comes back across the fleet in a nice lift. The wind heads them slightly but it doesn't matter because any boats coming across on starboard have done 2 tacks and are automatically 150m behind at best. The leader tacks on the layline and rounds first having done 2 tacks. The slow boat meanwhile is about 500miles behind because he had to tack again a couple of times when other boats tacked on them and they have been sailing most of the beat in a mixture of dirty air and confused seas.

All because of being 1% slower.

A 1% difference in boatspeed doesn't equate to a difference in 1% of the distance sailed at the end of the race, it would be much, much worse than that.
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 11:10am
Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

Originally posted by Scooby_simon


You are missing the point IMO; the speed difference we are talking about might be 1% (max); all the top boats WILL be going the same speed (almost);

So take it cat sailing on a small/medium sized course of say 15km upwind/dw;

that is a difference of 150m; that is one bad tack !, 2 bad Gybes or going the wrong way up one beat !

Simple as that.  

Even if a tack costs 150m in fast cat sailing(I don't know, but let's say), the difference between a good and a below average tack won't be this much. The 150m is the difference between tacking and not tacking.

Take the situation coming off the start line in this fast cat race. Everyone gets an equal front row start. After 20 seconds, the boat with 1% less boatspeed than the top guys start to fall into the boat below. Pretty soon they're struggling for clear air. They tack and have now lost 150m on the leaders plus the 1% in boatspeed. Starboard tack is lifting though, so the slow guys go off on a header for a bit and tack back after a minute. They are now 300m plus the 1% behind. The very fastest boat who is .1% faster than the other top guys has by this time squeezed out the boat to windward and has a clear lane to tack which is nice because the wind has shifted to the left. The leader does his first tack and comes back across the fleet in a nice lift. The wind heads them slightly but it doesn't matter because any boats coming across on starboard have done 2 tacks and are automatically 150m behind at best. The leader tacks on the layline and rounds first having done 2 tacks. The slow boat meanwhile is about 500miles behind because he had to tack again a couple of times when other boats tacked on them and they have been sailing most of the beat in a mixture of dirty air and confused seas.

All because of being 1% slower.

A 1% difference in boatspeed doesn't equate to a difference in 1% of the distance sailed at the end of the race, it would be much, much worse than that.

 

They tack and have now lost 150m on the leaders plus the 1% in boatspeed. Starboard tack is lifting though

 

A bad tack looses 150m a good one does not. 

Handy that Starboard was lifting. 

But as I said, the "slightly slower boat" is better than the rest of the fleet so they will be starting to windward (you forgot to mention that bit) so they will know that the shift is coming, be at the right side of the line and get the best of the shift.  The others are desperate for clear air and foot off after being beaten at the start and just make their position worse as there is a port shift coming.  As they have control of the fleet, they get to tack first when the port favored shift comes and so gain a little more;  The shifts are fairly large so they are gaining on each tack (their tacking is also better as this is more important); they round 200m ahead.

Pop the kite quickly (better boat handling) and then spot a good header (they are better at tacktics and condition spotting) and belt off down the run (they are now 300m ahead).  Further down they spot another gust and lift coming down the course so they gybe (quickly) onto what will become a header (good down wind) and gain another 50m in the gybe; extra pressue gains them 4kts speed and they are also sailing lower than the rest of the fleet. 

They round the mark 500m ahead and don't tack as they spot a lift coming which is good for them and bad for the rest of the fleet as they are not around the mark yet and are now being pushed high.  Up the next beat the wind is unstable and shifting every few minutes (enough to make it wrth tacking on each shift) so they are gaining on each of the 10 tacks they make, 30M on each tack; they are no doing a horizon job and are  800m ahead!!!!

Remember we are talking about small speed differences here.  If someone has a 5% jump in boat speed on the fleet, they then can just sail away !

 

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 11:14am

Originally posted by NeilP

For me, it keeps coming back to boatspeed. The best tactical sailor in the world won't win races if his speed is poor, cos everyone will just run away and refuse to play!

That is clearly true and I think everyone on this thread would agree. The discussion however is whether significant boatspeed differences actually exist in the top section of the fleet. The answer probably depends on the class.  

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 11:26am

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Remember we are talking about small speed differences here.  If someone has a 5% jump in boat speed on the fleet, they then can just sail away !

Indeed. Even the 1% difference Bruce is talking about is a massive boatspeed advantage in the classes I've sailed lately. A 1% boatspeed advantage just isn't there to be had. In some of the offshore classes where you continue on the same tack for long periods, it isn't unusual to sail for 30-40 miles and only gain or lose a boatlength or two. Owners will pay large amounts of money to change boats to save 0.1% percent on their handicap.

The last Fastnet I did in Sigma/38s, after 600 miles and four days of racing, four of the class (us included) finished within a couple of minutes. That is how small the boatspeed differences are in some classes.  

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Offshoretiger

So when Im driving and I start saying it all feels slow my crew usually tells me to shut up and drive and stop worrying about it.

Bad advice I think. IMO the helm is the only person who can feel if the boat is going well and in particular if it is under- or over-powered. I think on a bigger boat, apart from waggling the tiller, the helm's main job is coordinating the trimmers. Certainly as a sportsboat helm, I've often had to stop crew cranking everything in upwind in powered-up conditions. What looks pretty isn't always fast. This all assumes that the helm has the experience to know when the boat is right and when it is not. This takes time to learn and is quite class-specific. 

It's only bad advice if the helm happens to be right. And if helms start being right we will all have to re appraise our lives and start again in our outlook on sailing.  

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Jamie

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Offshoretiger

So when Im driving and I start saying it all feels slow my crew usually tells me to shut up and drive and stop worrying about it.

Bad advice I think. IMO the helm is the only person who can feel if the boat is going well and in particular if it is under- or over-powered. I think on a bigger boat, apart from waggling the tiller, the helm's main job is coordinating the trimmers. Certainly as a sportsboat helm, I've often had to stop crew cranking everything in upwind in powered-up conditions. What looks pretty isn't always fast. This all assumes that the helm has the experience to know when the boat is right and when it is not. This takes time to learn and is quite class-specific. 

It's only bad advice if the helm happens to be right. And if helms start being right we will all have to re appraise our lives and start again in our outlook on sailing.  

These issues are quite troubling in a single handed boat ...

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 12:31pm

Originally posted by Guest#260

These issues are quite troubling in a single handed boat ...

This is the reason single-handed sailors indulge in obsessive-compulsive behaviours like weighing SMOD masts. If only there was someone else on the boat to blame for what goes wrong, they could relax like the rest of us.

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Jamie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 12:43pm

Singlehanded sailors are split into to groups, those who would be crews and those who would be helms.

Crews in singlehanded boats are the ones that shout and swear at themselves for getting the tack wrong.

The helms are the ones who wait patiently for themselves to finish what they are doing and then queitly berate themselves at an almost inaudible volume for failing to predict what they wanted to do, then they check for weed on the rudder. 

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