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    Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

I have never heard a winner credit it to the best gear.

Naturally, its all down to their great skill, and focus blah blah blah....

The proof is in the pudding..... check out the potential winners as they check their rake 5 times, or spreader angle twice..... or try asking them what figure it reads before, not after a race...... you get a different response. They know, I know....... gear counts... its part of boat speed which is 50% of your race.
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Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Wouldn't we all. The question is: is there any such thing? I'd suggest that in most fleets, the front of the fleet are all getting 100% of possible boatspeed and the differences in finishing order come in starting and tactics. 

I couldn't agree less! I think the finishing order in most regattas is broadly the same as the order of boatspeed of the competitors.

I won a big nationals a few years back:- when we went the right way up the first beat we rounded first and won the race and when we went the wrong way up the first beat we rounded about 10th and went on to finish 3rd or so. We could have done the exact opposite of every tactical decision we made that week and still won because we were going faster than anyone else.

I suspect this is true for many National championship winners.

The differences in boatspeed I'm talking about are tiny but they make all the difference, and by boatspeed I mean sailor-speed as well, not just the boat itself.

Boatspeed is the most important thing by a long way. If you can tack and cross someone's bow by a couple of inches you may be launched, but if you're a few inches short of crossing, your race might be over. As they say, "sailing's a game of inches:- inches that turn into f***ing miles!!"

 
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Wouldn't we all. The question is: is there any such thing? I'd suggest that in most fleets, the front of the fleet are all getting 100% of possible boatspeed and the differences in finishing order come in starting and tactics. 

 

I won a big nationals a few years back:-

What class was that Bruce; and when?
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Posts: 124 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Starbuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 5:55pm

Heh! I don't want to say, because I like being anonymous! It was a decent one though, with 70-odd boats.

I'd say Rules is the least important of your criteria. You only need to know rules when it's going badly and you're getting protested!

Boat-handling is a variable one! In the 49er it'd be hugely important but you could win the Enterprise nationals with extremely average boat-handling if you were going quick enough and sailing smart enough.

The top sailors are usually quite good at everthing though!

 
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Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

you could win the Enterprise nationals with extremely average boat-handling if you were going quick enough and sailing smart enough.

What, in shifty light airs races if your roll tacking wasn't up to snuff?
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

Heh! I don't want to say, because I like being anonymous! It was a decent one though, with 70-odd boats.

That is up to you but any class where you can win the nationals with just boat speed sailing the wrong way can't be up to much ...

Rick
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 6:47pm

Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

Heh! I don't want to say, because I like being anonymous!

So what do you want to say that you need to be anonymous for? Personally, I'm willing to put my real name to what I say, and if I'm not, I don't say it. There are plenty of things I wouldn't say on a public forum but anonymity isn't a solution to that.

With respect, if we don't know who you are and you won't say what class you are talking about, it's not easy to assess what you say.

I'm not making a big deal of this; it's Mark's choice whether he allows people to remain anonymous. Just pointing out that you leave us with a problem.

 
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I think it is class depandant;One stuffed tack i a cat (travelling at maybe 12-15 kts upwind) will loose you 100m; difficult to make up in just pure boat speed

One stuffed gybe will loose more.
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fizzicist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 9:40pm

To my eyes boat speed is the most important of the lot - if you have poor boatspeed you are losing ground to the leaders all the time. If you get a perfect start and have no boatspeed, the best you can hope for is to go backwards slower than usual, whereas if you get a half decent start and have great boatspeed, you'll still be up there. Tactics against other boats are important some of the time - however IMHO it's better to be able to sail in clean air - which comes back to boatspeed.

Boathandling governs your boatspeed to an extent so it's nearly as important. In terms of rules I've lost races to not knowing the rules well enough but never series or positions in a championship. Again, with great boatspeed, you can often sail yourself out of trouble.

Correct weight is a bit of a misnomer - if you're tubby but can sit still then you're going to go well in light airs. If you're underweight but can depower a boat and sail it flat you'll go well in a blow.

With that in mind I'd say:

1. Boat Speed (inc. weight of boat, tuning of rig)

2. Boat Handling

3. Tactics

4. Starting

5. Strategy

6. Rules

7. Correct Weight
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Posts: 339 		Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 10:45pm
Good read so far!

tuppence from a yachtie?

I would put 5. Boat Speed (inc. weight of boat, tuning of rig)
6. Boat Handling and 7. Correct Weight (right crew weight for class)
 as preparation before the series -  to come equal first. They are depend on each other and gains in one help the other corners of the triangle.

"boat speed makes me a tactical genius" - was it Dennis Connor who said this? Being able to hit a start line and come out of each manoevre fast and keep speed up in all conditions means you can make the best of any strategic or start line advantages, and come out as good as possible from bad positions, bad wind or just bad luck.

While on prep' -  A good knowledge of the rules and exposure to protest committee will give you the confidence to make calls and earn respect in others. In certain OD fleets I have sailed in there are plenty chancers who win on other peoples dithering with the wee ruud cloot.

On the water? choose a boat which suits you and you enjoy.

1. Strategy (boat on fleet/weather patterns)
2. Tactics (boat on boat/shifts)
3. Starting


The last three in this order- know your strategy , use tactics (and your confidence with the rules) and get off the start line to suit your strategic goal.

In a yacht series for me it would be (once prepared) to know if the fleet has a tight line or a sag, know the tide and wind and pick some dogs to roll over mid line, or up to one third away from any bias. By dogs I mean sitting ducks who are too early or too slow and are clustering in the mistaken idea that everyone has to luff each other at every start- usually the lee boat will be way too high and a nice gap emerges below him for you to come up tight into and bear away as needed.

 If there is right to left tide it is worth hanging round the starboard end and even starting a bit late with bags of speed for an immediate tack.

If you are fancy, try dipping the line (no one minute rule) or port starting at the boat end.

Then play your strategy and be man enough or girl powered up to admit mistakes, spot changes in conditions and cover the fleet.

I have learnt all this from far better sailors than I, and applied it with some wins on helm and a couple of series wins as crew-tactician.
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