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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RS500 ...
    Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 2:40pm

Matt Johnson said...." IMHO it's not important that a manufacturer 'supports' a class or not as long as they are willing to let it go when they stop making money or replace it for marketing reasons (Look at the Blaze)

Matt - you will really have to try one sometime - you are always welcome.  But FYI Topper/White formula have not let the Blaze 'go' - at least not as far as I know !  (are you thinking of the V3000 ?) Topper/Whites still manufacture and sell the Blaze..  What has happened is that they, and the design rights holders (John Caig / Ian Howlett), have recognised the role of a vibrant class association.  This allowed us nearly 5 years ago to refine the rig and in particular the sail and to get it right.  They accepted that the 'punters' via the associaiton are the cheapest R&D and sales staff on the planet.  Cost effective for them and great for us as we get what works and makes the boat a greater pleasure to sail and race.  Compared to 'plastic' boats most GRP designs are a lower margin, lower volume proposition for the manufacturers that's why they are mostly focussing on the soap dishes.  It therefore makes a lot of sense for them to work with class associations of the GRP boats and accept justifiable updating or improvement periodically requested.  Its a half way house between the 'traditional' SMOD model and a one-design and rule based class setup.   It's also allowed us to improve without great expense to the owners and without the manufacturer hiding behind the fig leaf of  'one-design cos its fair'.  Manufacturers do get 'knocked' from time ot time but on this point Topper have been very innovative. 

Another more cynical interpretation that can be applied in some cases is it appears cheaper on occasion for a manufacturer to effectively replace a class than to sort the existing.  In our own experience  we are now very similar to a traditional one-designs in terms of periodic specification and rule reviews but have a single supplier of the main elements which can keep costs moderate.

There are several other great 90's SMOD's out there that could so easily be revitalised in a similar manner with a bit of a push by the punters for change.  I'm not saying there is not a place for good new boats - maybe the RS 500 among them - but there is plenty of life in many of the seemingly abandoned with a bit of imagination by all concerned.  In the Blaze class we now have a great boat, a good following and a class where there is a used boat shortage and where there are high and stable resale values. 

The alternative is for SMOD racers to migrate every few years, taking a big financial hit every now and again.

Cheers - Mike L.  (Blaze Class Association)  

 

 

  

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 4:50pm
to answer about the 29er-

it is a well priced boat new at 5 k odd and used. Nice construction in polyester rather than epoxy for cost.  Resale values after initial devaluation are ok compared to several we could look at.

In terms of the 'skiff versus heavier displavement' arguement then I think planing all round tthe course in the average conditions which we sail inshore ( or puddles) is progress in terms of design, construciton and performance

I'll do a thread comparing two boats I've sailed a bit on this point in 'experiences'

But I still think LDC  got a cheap 'focus group' by this thread to show them there is not really a market
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 5:54pm

Originally posted by damp_freddie

to answer about the 29er-

it is a well priced boat new at 5 k odd and used. Nice construction in polyester rather than epoxy for cost.  Resale values after initial devaluation are ok compared to several we could look at.

In terms of the 'skiff versus heavier displavement' arguement then I think planing all round tthe course in the average conditions which we sail inshore ( or puddles) is progress in terms of design, construciton and performance

I'll do a thread comparing two boats I've sailed a bit on this point in 'experiences'

But I still think LDC  got a cheap 'focus group' by this thread to show them there is not really a market

Actually; having spoken to Martin last night I believe they may have somthing with the 500; the Feva has been a huge success but kids don't stay in it that long as apparently they grow. Now I have owned a 29er that I sailed with my wife and I can say it is a nice boat but quite challenging. Not ALL kids who grow out of the smaller classes will want to aspire to this level of challenge and the 500 fits pretty well here.

I guess we are all speculating on the limited releases we have read - lets see what turns up at Excel and make a judgemnet then ...

Rick

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Pierre View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 05 at 7:41pm
SO he's offered you a job then Rick
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MainlySwimming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 05 at 9:16am

I can see what Rick / Martin mean, but I think those of us over 18 will still see this as a missed opportunity to put a bang up-to-date single-trapeze assy boat in the market that your average adult / heavy club sailor can be competitive in.......I think there would have been a lot more enthusiasm for an "assy fireball" that would span a much greater weight range then an "assy 420" which is what the 500 seems to be.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 05 at 9:51am

Originally posted by Pierre

SO he's offered you a job then Rick

Nah, I just understand their position now ... the scant reports to date don't really explain that ...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 05 at 9:53am
Originally posted by MainlySwimming

I can see what Rick / Martin mean, but I think those of us over 18 will still see this as a missed opportunity to put a bang up-to-date single-trapeze assy boat in the market that your average adult / heavy club sailor can be competitive in.......I think there would have been a lot more enthusiasm for an "assy fireball" that would span a much greater weight range then an "assy 420" which is what the 500 seems to be.

Are you calling for ANOTHER design as well?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 05 at 10:18am
Originally posted by blaze720

Matt Johnson said...." IMHO it's not important that a manufacturer 'supports' a class or not as long as they are willing to let it go when they stop making money or replace it for marketing reasons (Look at the Blaze)

FYI Topper/White formula have not let the Blaze 'go' - at least not as far as I know !

Yeah but that Matt Johnson talk rubbish most of the time . What I meant was that the dominent force in the class has ceased to be Topper. Most of the decisions and control are now with the 'punters' not evil corporate organisations (just a joke for those that can't spot irony).

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Shingle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 05 at 11:44am
Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by MainlySwimming

I can see what Rick / Martin mean, but I think those of us over 18 will still see this as a missed opportunity to put a bang up-to-date single-trapeze assy boat in the market that your average adult / heavy club sailor can be competitive in.......I think there would have been a lot more enthusiasm for an "assy fireball" that would span a much greater weight range then an "assy 420" which is what the 500 seems to be.

Are you calling for ANOTHER design as well?

Yes I think so, people in the world are generally getting heavier, unless you sail with Kate Moss there will be a demand for boats with better weight carrying abillity that still get the adrenaline rushing. Two people that are 26st is it crime?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote MainlySwimming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 05 at 12:19pm

I wasn't so much calling for another design, as pointing out that if you're going to launch a two-handed, single trap assy boat, why produce one that only works for teenagers?  The FB demonstrates very well that a boat can be fast, challenging, and also carry a very wide weight & skill range, so why do the modern assy designs seem to focus on the extreme ends of the spectrum with 49er / 800s requiring more space & skill than many clubs & crews have, whilst Vision, Buzz etc aren't challenging enough for a good adult club sailor. 

Maybe I'm just venting disappointment as having heard whispers about the 500 earlier in the year I was all excited....

 

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