LDC set to launch new trapezing two man dinghy, the RS500.

Nick Peters, in the company's sales team, explained more about the potential market for the new design: "We have identified a significant gap"

... is there a significant gap?

Rick

Uhhmm no!

Is it asymmetric or symmetrical? 

Asymmetric, made from GRP, metal mast one wire ...

Details are on "another website" no full pictures though ...

Rick

I would guess there is no problem with calling it an RS500 as it is in a very different product category and there is little chance of "passing off" or customer confusion.

The question is will it find a following with plenty of other good and popular single trapeze boats around ...

Rick

Where did you get this info..... I can't seem to find anything on the web.

 My mustard, for what its worth, is : I think he is talking about a gap in their range.... the term significant is just being colourful.

From the dinghy racers point of view, there obviously isn't a gap in the classes, but LDC won't care about that. They are following the text book market strategy of 'market saturation'. No doubt lots of corp' Bull S' will be knocking about like 'brand strength' and 'customer loyalty' but when you get down to it...... if they stop making new boats then they can only sell what the've already developed, so the companies growth is bound by the current classes popularity. And the 'new boat development' department/team will have to be scrapped/layed off/given a new direction...... so its only natural this team will be able to 'identify market gaps'.

As the potential customers I urge you all to show resraint in the face of massive marketing campains and sexy surfing through the spray photos. Only vote with your wallets if the new class can offer something tangebly different. Mind you..... Ive been saying this for 20 years and all I see at my club now is mini skiff esk production mouldings robbing technologies from quality established development classes, which then begg the same sailors to support them - ironic or just plain strange.

Sorry for the rant...... can anyone confirm this info  about the RS500 is true.

Details on "another" sailing website which is a subscription site ...

A gap in their range is very different to a gap in the market.

Rick

RS launch another new boat. Who cares? I mean really, who the hell gives a damn? Class racing at clubs is getting more and more difficult to find, handicap racing is seriously flawed (unless you sail a Fireball!!), so the answer is obviously another new class! So there's a gap in the market for a onedesign single trapeze dinghy? Since when? That market has been saturated since the 60's! The only difference is the asymmetric kite, which in that market has only one advantage - ease of handling. I can't be the only person who thinks that mastering the handling of a symmetrical kite is fun and very rewarding. Think of the satisfaction when you pull off a perfect reach to reach gybe flying down a wave with the kite full all the way through!

Maybe I'm behind the times, but I say again - WHO CARES??

I have to agree; I'd love to review the market segmentation analysis that shows the gap in the market.

Perhaps the chaps at RS should read this page.

http://www.marketingteacher.com/Lessons/lesson_ansoff.htm - http://www.marketingteacher.com/Lessons/lesson_ansoff.htm

Rick

There is a very cropped shot on the "other" site.

Rick

The markets we have identified for the RS500 are as follows:

• Young racing sailors – post Feva / Mirror but outside elite youth squad group >115kg
• Adult racing sailors – club and regatta circuit sailors <145kg
• Young or old – sport / recreational sailing
• Institutions – sport sailing / performance training

The first group mostly aspire to a trapeze boat. Currently they have the choice of 420 and 29er (4000 / Fireball are too big). The 420 is user friendly but expensive and many youngsters would prefer a modern asymmetric boat. The 29er is modern and asymmetric, but only the most talented youngsters are good enough to handle it  (therefore stifling fleet development at club level) and they also have to be light to be competitive. So there is a significant need here for the 500. We’re very close to many of these sailors right now and we’re hearing it directly from them and their parents.

Adult racers - The 500 will suit moderate sized adults as well as the younger sailors, deliberately aimed at transcending the usual age 19 break point. This will be relatively unique. Loss of sailors from the sport at age 19 is known to be a big issue. The 500 will be a boat you can sail at “any” age - that can be used by all the family – that is really easy to handle but loads of fun – that is very reasonably priced. This is another big slot in the market.

Ref the last two groups - recreational sailors and institutions – these two don’t affect the class racing debate, so I’ll not delve into them here.

This just highlights the stupidity of a marketing-driven approach to dinghy design. How on earth can anyone say that pairs of sailors between 18 and 23 stone are not catered for??? For God's sake, 9 stone helms and 14 stone crews are not uncommon in FD world. Anyone want to make a list of suitable boats that have established circuits, freely available entry-level boats and are a lot of fun. Starting with the Fireball, maybe?

Don't let this nonsense influence you, people. The loss of sailors from the sport at 19+ has NOTHING to do with a lack of classes for them to sail.

This stuff may be good for RS growth figures, but does the sport of dinghy sailing nothing but harm

Tom - too late

And Mr Wadhams - unique is a binary quality. Either it's unique or it isn't. Relatively unique is completely meaningless

Pedantic rant over

Maybe someone should tell all the teenagers currently sailing the fireball that the boat is to big for them.

The guys who won the silver fleet at the fireball worlds are 18, the guys who won the bronze fleet are both 14 and I can think of several other 14, 15 and 16 year olds currently sailing fireballs without any trouble at all.

Martin,

Welcome to the forum.

A couple of questions;

1) Do you think the RS500 will grow the number of active sailors or win/steal people away from other classes?

2) Assuming you answer both to 1) which classes do you anticipate will lose sailors to the RS500?

3) The RS200 is a huge success, do you think that the RS500 will tempt people from that fleet who want to go a bit faster, thus slowing the RS200 phenomena?

Rick

I’m sure the RS guys have done their research but it looks like they are pretty much just trying to redesign a laser 3000, which comes at a bad time since the V3000 has arrived  Between the Vago and V3000 this ‘gap’ is pretty comprehensively covered I think. As others have mentioned, the dinghy market is saturated with single wire classes already, catering for pretty much every crew combination.

I just hope the guys selling the V3000 have the money to compete with the inevitable large marketing campaign from RS and it doesn't kill it off

It isn't difficult to see where the gap in the market is really. It's nothing to do with sailing. They just want to have all the numbers in their catalogue.

RS100 coming soon?

I agree with Neil It is just a company trying to squeeze out other clases. Reducing fleet racing to being something only done at championships. Not good for the sport at all. 

It's a difficult situation.

I think we have all benefited from the innovation in the UK dinghy scene - RS have done some great things for the sport but the challenge is to achieve balance. Innovate when the demand is there and promote what you have to grow organnically when it is not. RS have no doubt enjoyed good finacial return each time they launch a new class as they get a rush of orders but it's the situation down the line that does not always look to healthy.

You can now get many failed SMODs for pennies which is great for those buying but for each of those happy buyers is  someone who has lost a lot of dough.

I think if the manufactures can achieve a balance then that is good; too many new classes is bad for our sport; but of course the market will decide in the end ...

Rick

There will always be the argument that there are too many classes, and initailly looking at the gap where the RS500 is meaning to fill, I thought that gap could have possibly been filled by the Buzz, Laser 3000, Fireball, Laser Vago and a few other boats that have been mentioned. Quite a number of responses to this thread have been arguing that we don't need another class as there are other boats that cater for the stated market. However, it might be best waiting to see what RS produce before writing off a boat, the RS500 could be a step forward from boats like the Buzz and 3000. If boat designers didn't produce new classes, we wouldn't see a move forward with technology within the marine industry and wouldn't have classes which a lot of us enjoy sailing. For instance, if designers looked at the High Performance market back in the early 90s, observed the Iso, Boss and Laser 5000 and decided that gap in the market had been filled, we wouldn't have the 49er, RS800 or Laser 4000.

Nonsense...... all these great new production boats don't drive technology. The steal it from existing developments and package them so the customer doen't need to think, just pay once, and he has a ready to sail (out of the box) solution.

If you yearn for technology then whats wrong with a real development skiff, I14, Cherub etc...... the answer is deeper in the psyche than we can admit - its just the appearance of moderninity.

While I agree that many of LDC et al 'new classes' have done much to shape the sport (rightly or otherwise), its a bit rich to commend them for 'moving technology forward'

I've been waiting for this to happen, it was fairly obvious that RS were holding the 500 badge back for some reason, and we all know that a single wire 800 is just not an option, I've never seen one sailed like that.

I only rediscovered dinghy sailing about 6 years ago so I'm a bit out of touch with what was happening before that, but it seems to my untrained eye that the glut of new classes coming onto the market is just getting ridiculous and is counter productive for all concerned.  Take the L3000 for example, presumably for cost reasons Laser decide to take the ageing Laser 2 hull and make an assym boat out of it, then shortly afterwards decide there is no market for it, in the meantime Vandercraft decide with a bit of sorting there is a market for it, and produce what in my eyes is perhaps the boat it always should have been.

The SMOD manufacturers just don't seem interested in doing the R&D prior to product launch or more importantly let people develop their boats within certain criteria to prolong the life of the class and peoples investement.  Laser would have realised that the Vortex was dull without a kite and put one on from the beginning.  And before anyone says "that would have made it too lairy", you could always leave it in the chute...

Take the Fireball for example, it has now more or less evolved into a one design because everything about it really is that well developed and that good and when you do the maths with sail numbers less than 100 boats away from 15000 that means that more than one Fireball has been built every working day since 1963 when the thing was launched!  It's sailed by everyone from 14 stone gorillas front and back to all girl teams weighing half as much.  Surely that is much more of an "all things to all people" product?  In the meantime, if I want to sail an RS800 (and don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful boat that I really love) and take the mainsheet from the boom skiff style then I can't in case that gives me an advantage.  In the meantime, in the RS200 fleet, you don't even carry any lead to make sure the boats at least weight the same? Hello????

I do hope the 500 is a good boat and it fulfils the needs of these people sat on the shore with no suitable boat to sail, tempting as that second hand Spice is for £1500. 

I know times have moved on and the days of people buying plans and building their own boats out of ply to get sailing have by and large long gone, and it's now all about profit and fashion and lifestyle (take the Vago advert, bigger picture of attractive bikini clad girl than boat) but if the manufactures insist on ramming product after product down the throat of the buying public, they should not be too surprised if they come in for a bit of friendly flak on a forum like this.  I for one would be far more respectful if a manufacturer just said "we're launching this as a direct competitor for the XYZ class.  We've done the R&D and spoken to a lot of sailors and many people from beginners to racers have sailed it and we believe our product is better and will last far, far longer." 

And before I get branded as a SMOD burning leftie please read my review of the Xenon elsewhere on this forum.  Right, I've seen a gap in the market and I'm off to design a rotomoulded carbon tunnel hulled fully foiling symmetrical-kite family trapeze keel-skiff.

Maybe true for some SMODs but beware of sweeping statements like this as they discredit the valid points you make.

The Musto underwent an extensive testing programme in the UK, Germany and Italy. This delayed  the launch by perhaps a year allowing RS to follow into the market with the 700 but I believe the testing programme was worth the effort. Owners opinions and sales of new boats and second hand prices verify that.

Rick

Rick, you're absolutly right, I take that bit back.  What I should have said is that SOME new classes are rushed to market before perhaps before they should have been.  Apologies.

I realise what everyone is saying but my point was that if manufacturers decided that a gap in the market was filled, we wouldn't have some of the classes that a lot of us enjoy sailing. My personal point of veiw is that the V3000 is a cracking boat and the RS500 will have to be something special to go head to head with it. They've also got the Vago to contend with, should be interesting.......

I did introduce that as a 'changing of words' ....... just cos he's buying another doesn't mean he wants the existing one - or do people on this forum like to sell stuff they really want to keep?

Sombody else refered to this reply as 'a bit harsh'..... I was just trying to be jockular while outlining that many SMOD's don't hold value too well. As an RS600 owner I feel entitled to a critique on these terms. That response was in no way intended as an extension of the 'bad time to sell' thread, but a continuation of this one.... to paraphrase Well's - I'd write it again!!!

To be fair....... some equal that level of depreciation, some exceed it, but not many - and particularly not non SMODs. I'm not knocking th RS600 or any other RS's as a class, I think they are mint, but I wouldn't recommed one to someone on any kind of budget.

here's a link to a few more details and a not very useful pic http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/index.cfm?rd=n&SEID=2&SRSID=&eid=&pid=&nid=20215&refre=y - http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/index.cfm?rd=n&SEID= 2&SRSID=&eid=&pid=&nid=20215&refre=y .

as others have said, it would appear that LDC are filling a gap in their range rather than a gap in the market. if you're young and want to go fast buy a 29er (they're really not that hard to sail), if you want one-design single wire asymmetric racing in a fleet of 20-40 year olds (ish) buy a 4000 - competitive weight range is ~130kg to ~190kg (and with weight equalistation that means genuinely competitive!)

Very interesting to read about peoples views about the new classes that have flooded the market in the UK.

Over here there hasn't been the same penetration by new designs. In Brisbane where I sail there are the normal kiddies classes, lasers and the adult dinghies are either the skiff classes (14 or 16ft) or the 505.

I rediscovered my passion for this sport about a year ago and got the 59er as to me the skiffs seemed somewhat intimidating and the 505 whilst a great boat is a little dated.

I guess what I am trying to say is that whilst people may decry the large numbers of SMOD boats in the UK the main thing is that the sport as a whole expands. If manufacturers with big advertising budgets can get people into the sport or attract others back it has to be good if the total number of people sailing dinghies increases. Eventually the law of the jungle will prevail and those classes that market themselves effectively and are good designs will prosper. Those classes that do not do this will decline and eventually vanish. The people that buy these boats will take a bath on depreciation but what is the alternative? Some might say development classes but that requires peoeple to THINK and these days people tend to be time poor and want a ready made solution. Now that I am back in the sport in a big way I personally am becoming a believer in a class where you can change things that don't work and keep up with developments. As some on this forum may know I am building a Swift Solo which has this philosophy. That, however is what what works for me and I believe that off the shelf turn key products are required to keep people entering our sport.

Looking at the UK scene from a distance it would appear to be more vibrant market due to the activities of the large manufacturers over there. So whilst I appreciate peoples concerns about the RS500 flooding the market at least it is good to see that things are happening in the UK. If it is a good enough design it will prosper.     

calm down CFC! my comment of "20-40 ish" was to distinguish the class from the youth-dominated 29er fleet. as well as a few under 20s, there are plenty of 4000 sailors who won't see 40 again, but 20-40 is definitely the main age bracket of the fleet.

Has so much changed on the British sailing scene in recent years? 30 years ago these were some of the two person hiking classes:

Albacore, Bosun, Eleven Plus, Enterprise, Express, Firefly, GP14, Graduate, Gull, Heron, Kestrel, Lark, Leader, Mayfly, Merlin Rocket, Mermaid, Miracle, Mirror, Mirror 16, National 12, Pacer, Scorpion, Seafly, Signet, Snipe, Turtle, Wanderer, Wayfarer, Wineglass…and I bet I’ve forgotten some!

There have always been new classes coming along – some successful, some not. The British dinghy scene is one of the most (probably the most) vibrant and active in the world. I talk to sailors around the world – most envy us.

In many of their countries there is a much more restricted system for classes raced generating greater resistance to new classes. Does this help or hinder their sport – particularly at grass roots level? If it helps, where is the evidence? Overall participation numbers? – nope. Newcomers to the sport?- nope. Retention of youngsters after youth classes? – nope.

In recent years we’ve seen the advent of the asymmetric spinnaker, the desire for SMODs to reduce campaign cost / time and some new materials used in sailboat production (and before the retaliation rains in, of course these are not for everyone – but they are clearly liked by some). So is it surprising that there has been a flurry of development?

Well developed, well targeted boats will succeed, those that miss the mark will not – same as ever. And, when one or two new classes are successful in a sector development is then likely to decrease again.

Martin,

I agree with all you have said above,the transition in the UK dinghy scene over the last 10 years has been incredible.

I don't think there is any other country that has a better dinghy sailing environment than the UK.

However, all markets move in cycles to some extent and in the early ninties the market soaked up the new classes like a sponge.

I suspect some of the resistance you have seen on this forum is an indication that perhaps the market is moving to a new phase - there are now enough new classes to forfill the needs of most of the sailors out there and perhaps what the market is now desiring is more focus on the developemnt of the classes that already exist rather than a new one.

As you say - at the end of the day the market will decide.

Rick

We seem to have come full circle with boat design.  Single trapeze boats are very unfashionable theses days (the Fireball's revival perhaps being the exception) and the L4000 is the only non-youth single-wire asymmetric you can buy, I think (can you still buy an ISO or Buzz?).  The irony is that it was RS that made them so unpopular, marketting the 400 and 800 as 'fairer' because you weren't reliant on lightweight helms and beanpole crews.  Having killed this sector off, they now spot the gap!  Far from being naive, I think RS are marketting genii.

Please don't think I'm sl*gging RS off, their boats are great and better sorted than most other SMODs, and I hope the 500 succeeds - but no one is in business for philanthropic reasons. 

'Designed to be more appealing for clubs than the difficult 29er or the symmetric and very expensive 420'

'Yardstick of around 1000, - stable enough for the "August sailors", and buoyant enough for Dad to enjoy...' (taken from the link in one of the above posts)

The design criteria sounds very similar to the one that the Buzz fits. Although clearly not being the most popular class around, I believe a few are still being built. So my question is what are RS proposing to do which is significantly different to the Buzz or V3000etc???

Personally, if your the right weight with a good crew...... I think you must be tragically sick not to sail a 420. 96, rept:96 boats at the last nationals, good cheap boats with resale value, international competition, big enough for dad, exciting, well developed etc.

Boats harder to sail than a ent are always going to have to take market share from one class - that is why we have mass hysteria over a new class that isn' very new. I don't see anything new here, so its sucess depends on the failure of classes like the 420.

I repeat again..... you'd have to be sick......

Buzz?  PY 1007, single trapeze, stable, great boat to learn assymetric sailing and trapezing

My personal view is that the gap in the market is definitely there.  At my club the shift to Assys (200s, L2000s, 400s) is almost complete with just a bunch of Fireball crews hanging on getting annoyed when they can't perform to handicap on assy-biased courses.  800s are too high performance for our waters - you barely get going before the board hits the sand- and the existing single-wire assy boats are seen as out-of-date compared to the modern hikers.  So I think there is certainly a gap in the market for an assy Fireball that works for teenagers but is also competitive with 2 big adults on board; the question is whether this is it.  A 14ft 'youth orientated' boat with a yardstick of 1000 feels like a missed opportunity.  I was hoping for a 400 / 800 crossbreed, not a cheaper 29er / 420 alternative.....oh well

Jim,

But Ford don't make hatchbacks to race together in a class... it is not a valid comparison.

RS can do what they like; it's a free market but it's an enthusiasts market and the dynamics to a general consumer market are very different.

The internet empowers owners groups just like this forum does and companies like Dell and Apple have had a bad time on the web recently through the power of bloggs and forums when they have ignored the market ... they qucikly learned to listen to the voice of on-line forums.

Rick

Actually I think he was saying the opposite. Many of the 30 year-old classes he listed are still going strong.

If the transformation has been that huge, how come there are only two classes launched in the last 10 years in the top twenty of http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=44 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=44

Or is there a growing gulf between what get sailed at club level and the people who go to nationals, and if so, why? 

Proportionally I'd expect that the newer classes are more active. Old classes have a huge install base and if the nationals is promoted many of the occasional sailors wheel their boats out for the nationals.

Rick

Also significant on the page was the likely price and competitors:

Should be at the January Boatshow …and available for delivery next season,
likely retail price £4895 inc vat, and launching trolley

- comparing to £5795 29er, £6250 420, and £4495 Vago (this is polyethylene).

This is really about market share, i.e. RS competing with Ovinington and Laser, rather than a gap in the market!

Looking at the pix it's pretty obvious that this is a direct competitor for the Vago.  People interested in buying this type of boat will not be worried about hull material...in fact just give them the relevant sales spin depending on which product you are selling.  I would also say that it's up against the Xenon, which, as the Topper demo chap pointed out to me the other day, does have trapeze points on the mast although no wires as yet.

Kitbags at dawn gentlemen!  May the best boat win, and that could be anyone's guess.  When the two competing keelboats (K6 and SB3) came out I much, much preferred the look of the K6, but look what happened!

Let battle commence!

'The Buzz is hardly the most modern hull shape, the rig is nothing special, and, most to the point, RS don't sell it!'    

 I agree completely with the last point. However the supposed design criteria is:  'Yardstick of around 1000, - stable enough for the "August sailors", and buoyant enough for Dad to enjoy...'  

I don't understand what a more modern hull shape would bring, more stability than a Buzz? it can't be much faster since the yardstick is to be around 1000? And excluding building materials and having been designed recently, what exactly defines a more 'modern' hull shape?

Rig wise it doesn't sound like RS are intending to use a carbon mast..... I'd like to think that RS will make use of recent design developments (whatever they are)to design a significantly better boat which as argued earlier will allow british sailing to further develop. Rather than build a boat that is similar to many and further saturate market, and use the RS brand name as a selling point.

Incidentally I used to have a Buzz, have done a couple of seasons in an 800 and have a 600. As I probably appear to be defending the Buzz a little too much! I'm sure the V3000 fits a similar sort of criteria.

Very different boats really. K6 is less than half the weight of the SB3 and roughly two-thirds the sail area. Put them in the middle of the Solent and they look pretty tiny. The SB3 strikes me as a better proposition for Solent racing.

It is pretty awful isn't it

Looks slow too

The V3000 would be getting my money anyway, reckon the V3000 will be quicker and looks a better developed boat...... Will be interesting to see what happens.

Well thank heavens the new FRP Osprey will be out soon.  Big boys toys

Well so what if its a Vareo on HRT - if they have got it right it will still sell and if not it will righty fade away.  Cannot understand what all the froth is about - of course its about business and what's wrong with that !  Business  delivers better design in a dynamic market (and the UK must be THE dynamic market) and it can translate the best of development into a low cost mass market product at an affordable price.  The downside is that at least half of the modern SMOD's will fail and to many they will appear poor compromises - but the better ones can prosper and bring more into competitive sailing.   If this one outlasts the PR and hype of the first 2-3 years it will LEVER its own gap in the market if its any good.  There are no real gaps out there - its about competition despite what is sometimes said and only a few minor niches could be said to exist unless you stretched the point a long long way.   After all the hardcore UK dinghy racing market is probably less than 20k people in total but the recreational market (those who sail a few times each Summer must be 20 times that at least - where would you aim your new product then?).  Those that feel threatened should work to improve their own classes appeal and not simply blame the suppliers for what comes naturally.   Remember though that the customer is always right ... in the end.

Mike L.  

A V3000 prototype is racing at my club.  The boat is significantly faster than the L3000 in any sort of breeze although the helm claims he thinks its not as good in the light stuff.  The helm is very good but this doesn't explain completely why the V3000 is embarassing the 4000s - it has to be the boat, particularly the lighter hull.

The helm claims the boat is still under development and so may not turn out quite so fast.  That will be up to the class association - they may have a dilema.  Slow it down so that it stays comparable with the L3000 or leave it like it is, which may give it a yardstick under 1000 and then it will have a nice ciche in the market rather than being a competitor to the Buzz.

We'll have to se how it performs in the light but in any breeze its way faster than a Buzz.

Yep..... thats all that needs to be said.

No, that's not all that needs to be said.

If you are buying say, a car, that is an individual decision. It doesn't really matter to you if 1000 or 100,000 people buy the same model. You might well like something exclusive.

If you are buying a racing boat, you are buying into a class and you want others to do the same. It's more like buying a fax machine; pretty useless if you own the only one. The economists have a term for this kind of product whose value increases as more people buy it: they talk about network effects and Metcalf's law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect

The proliferation of classes changes sailing for everyone. Those clubs still running "adopted class only" policies come under increasing pressure to allow in new classes. Class racing is under pressure at some clubs and pretty much gone at others. Equally, nobody would dispute that good new classes emerge amongst the quickly-forgotten ones.

Whether you let market forces prevail, as most but not all clubs in the UK do, or whether you strongly steer sailors to established classes, as seems to happen in much of mainland Europe and some clubs here, is a decision that has big effects on the way the sport develops. It's a subject that needs to be discussed.

I'm not saying I know the answers one way or another. My point is just that there is more to it than "consumer choice".

Yes it is. Metcalf's model applies to a perfect market which has an unlimited number of potential buyers. A new dinghy class of the type proposed by LDC must take users of existing classes. While fax machines fit this model, they do so as anyone represents a potential customer so the base is unlimited and, in the case of Metcalf's, its the 'fax machine', not a specific model of fax machine to which the model refers. Academically its as flawed as anyother economic model, but I think thats by the by.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think that the sport isn't driven by the consumers within it.... you do have to buy a boat to sail it (normally), and this situation has been prevalent for 20years or more. Yeah, it sucks. I don't like it, and I'd love to have class only racing everywhere, but down here on earth its a war, and the classes that prevail do so at the expense of others. That's what Blaze was saying and to that extent, the customer will decide.

Stefan,

I worked with Bob Metcalf during my 6 years at 3Com and I don't think his "law" was really applicable in this situation but I think you are making a valid point.

People want a boat they enjoy AND in most cases a boat they can race - which means you need others. We need fleets to enjoy our sailing.

The thing I would be worried about if I worked at LDC is all the general negative vibe towards LDC shown on this forum - they will no doubt sell 40 boats off the stand at Excel but the market perception of the company is not healthy if this forum is any indication.

Rick

That's not what I said. I said there is more to it than that. Obviously consumer demand is a major factor. But interpreting "consumer demand" to reflect only the class of boat is simplistic.

Want to sail an RS500 near me? Well you couldn't, because my local club applies an "adopted class only" policy to protect class racing.

Want class racing at some smaller clubs? You can't get it, because everyone has bought a boat that suited themselves, which all turn out to be different.

Now my local club would say they are not rejecting consumer demand, they are responding to it. And the demand (they say) is for class racing, which (they argue) only a directive policy by the club will maintain.

Who is right? I can't say I'm certain.But it is more complicated than you are suggesting.  

That's right - you can theorise about any market dynamic or structure if you like but the dinghy racing world is only really a specialist niche at best.  A 'free'' market does have its flaws but what alternative could be suggested - "you all should  sail what we think is good for us all - and we know best"  Sounds a little bit like good old command economy thinking to my mind - thought the wheels fell off that one in 1989.  

Don't blame the suppliers - but they should also realise that the customer can be as equally unreliable in the end - and suppliers who produce too many orphans can in time suffer the consequencesmore generally.  Besides the 'golden' days of strict one designs being the only thing you were permitted to sail at some locations were not really that golden really.  You could get lumbered with some dated, hopeless old barge class "because it is good for the quality of the racing .... and its 'fair".  Are you really sure ? Club one-design racing may be in partial decline but people are much more mobile as well today.  They can get practice and handicap racing at their home club and 'class' racing whenever they want on the racing circus.  It's a different model but its just as valid and you get to sail what you want not what someone else imposes on you.  'Approved classes only' can work locally but the best racing is generally found on the open circuit in the majority of clases and posssibly always has been there.  You like your class - get out and race it at your club and on the circuit. 

I have not got a clue whether the RS500 will prosper or even if its a good boat.  It does have a lot of competition of course the V3000, Vago, 29er, even the Buzz and 420 have a lot going for them so it will be tough and someone could end up in tears.  However competition is the only model that works long term - edict (or even a big marketing spend) only in the short term.  May the best boat or boats win !  Internationally that might already be the 29er/420 but in the UK there just might be enough room for Vago/V3000 (which really does look the part) and RS500. All depends on how small a segment you can claim as your own. 

Mike L.

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Thats great..... Im just sour grapes cos my local club, and most around used to have 'adopted classes' racing, with an additional menagarie (spelling?) class. That was in the days when they had a waiting list for membership - and the waiting list was weighted to fill the classes first, so if you had a GP or Ent you could probably join in a year but if you had a bosun or TOY you'd be waiting for ever. All that happened was in the early 90's membership dropped off and they had to take whatever they could. As the numbers came back, they did so with the boats they wanted.

I envy you if you have a good class only club and I salute any club which has the balls to enforce it over handicap..... at the suggestion at our club they commitee went into hysteria as everyone wants their class to be one of 'the ones'.

The reason, on this forum, Ive been so anti rs500 is I feel we (the dinghy sailors) need less choice, not more. Club racing is the roots and will define our future international sucess, we should want to make it as good as we can.

Yes they are. You can question where the people who are running all these opens are going to come from if people are flitting from club to club though. It's clubs and club members who run racing.

You can also question whether people are still going to be so mobile in 10-20 years time. Increased congestion, oil prices, who knows? When you start becoming stuck in traffic jams at 07:30 on a Sunday morning on the way to sailing (as has happened to me more than once), you begin to think....this is too much like the daily grind.

Despite all the erudite discussions of marketing, economics etc, we seem to be missing a point here. Do we want our sport to be run by businesses as a market for their products, or by sailors for the benefit of sailors? SMOD class associations are almost all driven by the manufacturer concerned, and guess what happens when the sales figures of a particular boat slow, or the constant drive for growth and "progress" mean a boat gets replaced by something new? Can't guess? Ask the Iso class! Or the RS300 class. Or the Boss class. Or...

A good boat is a good boat, whenever it was designed. Just cos it doesn't have a jazzy marketing campaign, seethrough sails and an overweight carbon mast doesn't make it rubbish. Has damp freddie ever sailed a 505 or FD? Both 50-year old designs, but two of the most exciting and challenging classes you could name. The only real progress in dinghy performance made in the last 40 years has been in downwind speed. An FD is still blisteringly fast upwind, especially in big wind and waves. The 5oh is a great boat. Both FD and 5oh have the benefit of a worldwide following, a class structure that is totally independent of any commercial organisation, and many years of development by the greatest dinghy sailors ever. Gap in the market? Where?

The UK dinghy sailing "market", like the whole UK economy, is based on consumer credit, and that bubble will burst, probably sooner rather than later. When it does, RS, Topper, Laser et al may well find themselves with a HUGE problem. No sympathy, it will be entirely of their own making.

Good classes can emerge from handicap racing at many clubs and be given their own starts.   Tired, poorly supported, or temporarily weak ones can move the other way - some re-emerge as 'stand-alone' some don't.   It works at my club and at many others.  It allows transition over time and 'rewards'  those that are genuinly successful and popular.  As a model it does not allow 'them' (whoever they might be) to decide what they want to see raced at 'their' club.  They are 'our' clubs and "we the people etc etc

Some classes will fail eventually, and that is not a bad thing surely.  Our sport is a competitve one and that includes between classes and suppliers.  We enjoy some of the best and most vibrant, well supported dinghy racing anywhere.  Look at countries that have a few (often old and expensive) classes where its difficult or made difficult fr new classes to be tried out - you can name them I'm sure but I'm not risking a drubbing here - do you really want that here !!  I support class racing wherever that is justified but cannot condemn handicap racing that allows new classes to be tried on a continuous basis.  It stops 'officially' supported classesfrom being complacent locally and nationally and means only the very best and genuinly popular grow in the long term.

Mike L.

I don't think you can blame RS etc for peoples lack of fiscal common sense ...

However; I do think that the level of personal debt in the UK is frightening - but that is a bit off topic ...

What do you base that on (other than UK)? In the USA, as an example, the bastion of consumer choice, dinghy sailing appears to be dying on its feet.

I'm not arguing the opposite either, just questioning your basis for that statement.

There is, of course, a constant flow of people through sailing, but I think the great majority of boats are bought by people already in the sport. Suppose you start at 10, stop at 50 and buy a boat every 5 years. That is 8 over the course of your sailing career. Add up the number of boats I've bought over the years and, what do you know, it's 8 (and I hope I haven't finished yet). I don't think I'm extreme in that regard.

Hence most raceboat SMOD manufacturers are largely selling to people already within the sport.

A couple of thoughts:

a) If clubs were to ban new designs and force us into 'preferred' classes, would we not all still be sailing clinker built things from yesteryear that weigh a ton, barely move, flood/sink and cost a fortune. 

b) I think that one of the reasons new 'one designs' appear to fail after a few years is that they do not/ can not adapt.  They therefore date quickly and (unless well developed prior to launch) keep their foibles.  Fireballs, 505s etc change over time and so could be considered more modern than the ISO, L4000 etc.

So, I've had an idea...

How about a new rule based class.  I've not thought too much about the exact type of rule, but something like the N12/I14 rules but for ISO/L4000 type boats (carbon free hulls, single wire, asymmetric).  Think F18 but for dinghies.  This allows class racing and still allows for freedom of expression/tailoring of design to physique/homebuilders etc...

Hi all

Yet another lively topic on the Yachts and Yachting Online forum!

A little plea to all of our posters - could you declare ALL commercial interests you may have in products or rival products when commenting in discussions like this. A huge number of people are reading these threads and should be made aware of any vested interests the writer may have.

Cheers, Mark

Only if that was what the members wanted, presumably. Adopted classes aren't generally adopted for all time.