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NeilP View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 12:22pm
Not blaming them - they simply took advantage of the current climate. All I was saying was that, given the fact that the SMOD classes naturally rely on a manufacturer who will only support the class as long as the sales figures stack up, there may be several classes coming down to earth with a very big bump in the not too distant future!
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 12:19pm

Originally posted by JimC

But dinghy sailing seems to be strongest on the Countries where there's lots of choice.

What do you base that on (other than UK)? In the USA, as an example, the bastion of consumer choice, dinghy sailing appears to be dying on its feet.

I'm not arguing the opposite either, just questioning your basis for that statement.

There is, of course, a constant flow of people through sailing, but I think the great majority of boats are bought by people already in the sport. Suppose you start at 10, stop at 50 and buy a boat every 5 years. That is 8 over the course of your sailing career. Add up the number of boats I've bought over the years and, what do you know, it's 8 (and I hope I haven't finished yet). I don't think I'm extreme in that regard.

Hence most raceboat SMOD manufacturers are largely selling to people already within the sport.

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by NeilP

The UK dinghy sailing "market", like the whole UK economy, is based on consumer credit, and that bubble will burst, probably sooner rather than later. When it does, RS, Topper, Laser et al may well find themselves with a HUGE problem. No sympathy, it will be entirely of their own making.

I don't think you can blame RS etc for peoples lack of fiscal common sense ...

However; I do think that the level of personal debt in the UK is frightening - but that is a bit off topic ...

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Bumble

Further....Martin Wadhams and friends would do well to read the post titled 'bad time to sell?'. A more abstract title might be ' help! I can't sell my RS600 cos second hand versions arn't worth a bean anymore and I don't want it either'. Maybe one of the 'potential gaps within the market' is creating a new boat which has a resail (geddit) potential, without crippleing the customer a couple of years down the line. Or maybe the strategy is to make the boat out of paper..... then people will need to keep buying new ones for ever ....(worked for the laser).


Not the case at all, I have just bought a newer 600 so the older one is redundant. I want to stay with the class as do many others, all I am doing is upgrading to a newer, model as is normal practise in any other class.
If I had an eight-year old Laser and wanted to upgrade to a two year old one, no-one would bat an eyelid!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 11:49am

Good classes can emerge from handicap racing at many clubs and be given their own starts.   Tired, poorly supported, or temporarily weak ones can move the other way - some re-emerge as 'stand-alone' some don't.   It works at my club and at many others.  It allows transition over time and 'rewards'  those that are genuinly successful and popular.  As a model it does not allow 'them' (whoever they might be) to decide what they want to see raced at 'their' club.  They are 'our' clubs and "we the people etc etc

Some classes will fail eventually, and that is not a bad thing surely.  Our sport is a competitve one and that includes between classes and suppliers.  We enjoy some of the best and most vibrant, well supported dinghy racing anywhere.  Look at countries that have a few (often old and expensive) classes where its difficult or made difficult fr new classes to be tried out - you can name them I'm sure but I'm not risking a drubbing here - do you really want that here !!  I support class racing wherever that is justified but cannot condemn handicap racing that allows new classes to be tried on a continuous basis.  It stops 'officially' supported classesfrom being complacent locally and nationally and means only the very best and genuinly popular grow in the long term.

Mike L.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 11:45am

Despite all the erudite discussions of marketing, economics etc, we seem to be missing a point here. Do we want our sport to be run by businesses as a market for their products, or by sailors for the benefit of sailors? SMOD class associations are almost all driven by the manufacturer concerned, and guess what happens when the sales figures of a particular boat slow, or the constant drive for growth and "progress" mean a boat gets replaced by something new? Can't guess? Ask the Iso class! Or the RS300 class. Or the Boss class. Or...

A good boat is a good boat, whenever it was designed. Just cos it doesn't have a jazzy marketing campaign, seethrough sails and an overweight carbon mast doesn't make it rubbish. Has damp freddie ever sailed a 505 or FD? Both 50-year old designs, but two of the most exciting and challenging classes you could name. The only real progress in dinghy performance made in the last 40 years has been in downwind speed. An FD is still blisteringly fast upwind, especially in big wind and waves. The 5oh is a great boat. Both FD and 5oh have the benefit of a worldwide following, a class structure that is totally independent of any commercial organisation, and many years of development by the greatest dinghy sailors ever. Gap in the market? Where?

The UK dinghy sailing "market", like the whole UK economy, is based on consumer credit, and that bubble will burst, probably sooner rather than later. When it does, RS, Topper, Laser et al may well find themselves with a HUGE problem. No sympathy, it will be entirely of their own making.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Bumble

The reason, on this forum, Ive been so anti rs500 is I feel we (the dinghy sailors) need less choice, not more. Club racing is the roots and will define our future international sucess, we should want to make it as good as we can.


But dinghy sailing seems to be strongest on the Countries where there's lots of choice.

I think the argument about the limited market is false. There's a constant flow of young sailors starting sailing, and a constant flow of older people stopping again. If the flow of people stopping sailing is faster than those starting then the market contracts, if people keep sailing longer then the market expands. Its not as if the current pool of sailors is fixed. It isn't.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 10:21am

Originally posted by blaze720

 Club one-design racing may be in partial decline but people are much more mobile as well today.

Yes they are. You can question where the people who are running all these opens are going to come from if people are flitting from club to club though. It's clubs and club members who run racing.

You can also question whether people are still going to be so mobile in 10-20 years time. Increased congestion, oil prices, who knows? When you start becoming stuck in traffic jams at 07:30 on a Sunday morning on the way to sailing (as has happened to me more than once), you begin to think....this is too much like the daily grind.

 



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Bumble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 9:53am

Thats great..... Im just sour grapes cos my local club, and most around used to have 'adopted classes' racing, with an additional menagarie (spelling?) class. That was in the days when they had a waiting list for membership - and the waiting list was weighted to fill the classes first, so if you had a GP or Ent you could probably join in a year but if you had a bosun or TOY you'd be waiting for ever. All that happened was in the early 90's membership dropped off and they had to take whatever they could. As the numbers came back, they did so with the boats they wanted.

I envy you if you have a good class only club and I salute any club which has the balls to enforce it over handicap..... at the suggestion at our club they commitee went into hysteria as everyone wants their class to be one of 'the ones'.

The reason, on this forum, Ive been so anti rs500 is I feel we (the dinghy sailors) need less choice, not more. Club racing is the roots and will define our future international sucess, we should want to make it as good as we can.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 05 at 9:48am

That's right - you can theorise about any market dynamic or structure if you like but the dinghy racing world is only really a specialist niche at best.  A 'free'' market does have its flaws but what alternative could be suggested - "you all should  sail what we think is good for us all - and we know best"  Sounds a little bit like good old command economy thinking to my mind - thought the wheels fell off that one in 1989.  

Don't blame the suppliers - but they should also realise that the customer can be as equally unreliable in the end - and suppliers who produce too many orphans can in time suffer the consequencesmore generally.  Besides the 'golden' days of strict one designs being the only thing you were permitted to sail at some locations were not really that golden really.  You could get lumbered with some dated, hopeless old barge class "because it is good for the quality of the racing .... and its 'fair".  Are you really sure ? Club one-design racing may be in partial decline but people are much more mobile as well today.  They can get practice and handicap racing at their home club and 'class' racing whenever they want on the racing circus.  It's a different model but its just as valid and you get to sail what you want not what someone else imposes on you.  'Approved classes only' can work locally but the best racing is generally found on the open circuit in the majority of clases and posssibly always has been there.  You like your class - get out and race it at your club and on the circuit. 

I have not got a clue whether the RS500 will prosper or even if its a good boat.  It does have a lot of competition of course the V3000, Vago, 29er, even the Buzz and 420 have a lot going for them so it will be tough and someone could end up in tears.  However competition is the only model that works long term - edict (or even a big marketing spend) only in the short term.  May the best boat or boats win !  Internationally that might already be the 29er/420 but in the UK there just might be enough room for Vago/V3000 (which really does look the part) and RS500. All depends on how small a segment you can claim as your own. 

Mike L.

    

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