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Tornado_ALIVE View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 8:18am

I have heard that there is a guy in Western Australia who is extending 2 Moth hulls to 16 foot in an attempt to make an F16 catamaran.

Seriously though, I don't see the advantage with turning a moth into a cat.  The waterline length is just too short.  The A class is the catamaran version of the Moth.

LOA   5.5m (18’) Width: 2.3m (7’6")
Mast (H)   9.1m (30’) Mast Size: 145 x 60 or 59mm
Sail Area   Total 13.9sqm (150sq’) Main 12.4sqm Mast 1.5sqm
Minimum Weight Rigged   75kg (165lb)
Crew  

One on trapeze

 

The A class did get down to less than 60 kg fully rigged at one stage before the class decided to set a more conservative minimum weight at 75 kg



Edited by Tornado_ALIVE
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I luv Wight View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 4:03pm
There are just too many reasons why a double moth won't work.
cost ie for 2 new identical boats = about £12,000, + extra for combining.
If you go for cheap old boats, then the weight will be more like 2 x 40kg = 80 kg.
Twin rigs are much less efficient than one big rig - maybe only 50 % more drive than single rig.
Single rig would need big mast, sail, crossbeam etc etc = £££ or kgs.
The drag is doubled, but only 150% drive = goes slower.
More righting moment - but only if the windward hull flies out of the water - ie with leeward heel. And we all know how slow leeward heel is in a moth.
The displacement taken by the lee hull is increased by the extra weight added ie 140 kg instead of 100kg.
The hulls are tuned for 100kg displacement, as any fat person, or 2-up sailor will have noticed.
Any extra righting moment and the larger pitch down force resulting has to be balanced by more T foil angle. or different bow shape, = more drag.

For foiling the same applies, but worse - the windward heel ( that gives low drag ) won't work in the cat format, so more than double drag, much less than double force = slow.
Also problems with keeping all the foils under the surface.

If you want a light cat - the A-class would seem to have all the right stuff!

But maybe you could build a (moth)² and prove me wrong!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote riding shotgun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 4:35pm

you have all fogotten the main reason for having a double moth, its kool.....

its hip, its radl..........its like having a chopper motorbike, they are pretty much un-useable in most situations but asthetically nobody can touch them, you imagine sitting on a 'lion moth!!' fair enough you'd be watching people go past but you WOULD be kool!!

 

sail 505, live a little
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Strawberry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 5:32pm
cost ie for 2 new identical boats = about £12,000, + extra for
combining
If you go for cheap old boats, then the weight will be more like 2 x 40kg
= 80 kg.

I'm only going to be using the bare hulls of older moths, and there's no
way they're gonna weigh 40kg, more like 20kg

Twin rigs are much less efficient than one big rig - maybe only 50
% more drive than single rig.

There was never any plans to use a double rig

Single rig would need big mast, sail, crossbeam etc etc = £££ or
kgs.

I have a Cherub rig, part of a 49er rig, and part of an Int.14 rig already.

The drag is doubled, but only 150% drive = goes slower.

True speed isn't the issue, it's the perception of speed. Granted it's never
going to win any races!

More righting moment - but only if the windward hull flies out of
the water - ie with leeward heel. And we all know how slow leeward heel
is in a moth.

As above

The displacement taken by the lee hull is increased by the extra
weight added ie 140 kg instead of 100kg. The hulls are tuned for 100kg
displacement, as any fat person, or 2-up sailor will have noticed.

You seem to have forgotten to factor in the dynamic lift from the hull
when moving at speed. ie. windsurf boards

Any extra righting moment and the larger pitch down force
resulting has to be balanced by more T foil angle. or different bow shape,
= more drag.

The risk of going down the mine is half the fun!

The whole point was:
- it would be great fun to build
- it would be really interesting to see what happened
- a bit of a laugh to sail

Buying a cat just seems to destroy the whole object!

Edited by Strawberry
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Isis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 6:21pm
Bloody hell guys, your all thinking far too far into this.

Think about it, do you think it was sugested as a new concept for the ultimate cat? No. Its not going to be hooning past the A's for sure, and hell it might even be slower than a regular moth but thats missing the point entirely.

I like 'shotguns analogy to choppers. Sure you can go quicker, sure you can have something more user friendly but theres something uniqely cool about them and people have a lot of fun riding them.

Ive gotta admit though, im liking I_Luv_White's (moth)² name suggestion a fair bit more than 'lion moth'

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Strawberry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 6:57pm
Isis and shotgun, you seem to have the right idea!

Andy, I'm sure your technically right, but speed isn't the issue here. If I
wanted to go fast I would buy a powerboat!

To quote a convo with Ben Isis:
"if you want to feel like your going fast, get the shortest boat you can lay
your mits on and cram it with rag"

But I may adopt the (moth)² thing
Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry
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Isis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by Strawberry


To quote a convo with Ben Isis:
"if you want to feel like your going fast, get the shortest boat you can lay
your mits on and cram it with rag"


Now, who up for starting a modernised 8ft skiff class?
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Strawberry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 7:09pm
I'm quite up for designing/building a 6ft skiff. They say your 1st design/
build is always crap/overweight. So might aswell get the first crap one out
the way on something not too serious/expensive.
Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry
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Isis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 7:21pm
I seriously considered an 10ft skiff a while back, got to the level of begining to prototype it and then accidentaly found a cherub and decided to waste my money on that instead 
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big man is back View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote big man is back Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 9:37am
a six foot skiff would be cool but would you put foilers on it?
maybe theres more to life than being really really really really..........really good looking
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