Inspired
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1184
Printed Date: 14 Aug 25 at 10:12pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Inspired
Posted By: Strawberry
Subject: Inspired
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 3:35pm
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I couldn't sleep last night, so whilst lying in bed awake, I had a great idea,
that I just had to tell someone. How about getting two moth hulls and joining them together with 6ft beams, and putting a tramp in the middle, to make a moth catamaran! Wouldn't even be that complicated as you could use the rack attachments to join the beams to the hulls. Beams would be easy to laminate with carbon. Would be an example of would have surely happened if multi-hulls weren't banned all those years ago. Possible extension ideas: - bigger sails - spinnaker - trapeze - using half the racks on each boat to make "outriggers", to carry even more sail!!! I call it the Tiger Moth! ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Replies:
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 4:42pm
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There is already a boat called a tiger moth stu, It's a 2 man moth. Here is a pic, sorry to piss on your fireworks mate! Actually i can't find a pic, rare as rocking horse s*it! ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 4:46pm
The name is un-important! I'll call it the Lion Moth then!  ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 6:20pm
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Does it have a massive pole sticking out of the front and a cut down 49er main? You worry me... ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 6:30pm
So what youve really invented is a subtle blend between this: and this:  well... inspired is one word for it  Photoshops comming later if I get bored enough... ------------- |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 7:02pm
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Yer, basically. Would end up 11ft long, weigh about 40kg, and have silly sail
area. Sounds like a blast. ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: neilw
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 7:59pm
Tiger moth - two man Int Moth designed and built by Claridge. ------------- |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 8:10pm
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oohh a really narrow development B-14??? werethere ever plans to present it as a class or was it purely a one off? I Like a LOT!! ------------- |
Posted By: kasey3000
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 10:06pm
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[ Isis???...is that pics from Grafham? ------------- 49er 908 |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 11:22pm
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No idea kasey, I found it on the Cambridge University Cruising Club website via Google image search. Well: I said if I got bored id chop it and well... I got bored Im seriously out of practice with photoshop so the perspective is all off and the quality is a bit poor but mneh... so sue me  Minus the huuuaaaggee pole and kite but thats all I could be arsed with for now... Along the right lines Stu? ------------- |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 11 Nov 05 at 11:36pm
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Thats what i'm mo fo'in chattin about!
Apart from the fact it would be flying the windward hull, and the leeward hull would probably down the mine! ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: riding shotgun
Date Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 11:36am
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wow, that would be so kool...........why not keep two sails and literally just stick two int moths together....could be a new directions for sailing, playing two mailns and entually a spinny as well
i'd buy 1 ------------- sail 505, live a little |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 11:47am
Aren't the Cherubs almost a moth hull design, with the added sail area and the ability to carry 2 crew members? Have a look at the various designs........ (Andy Cherub's boat is pretty thin comparabile to some of the old moth designs). For the Cat idea, why not just buy a cat? Probably cheaper and a lot faster in the long run. Competitive Hurricane 5.9s are going for about £2-3K. Would love to see a moth design go faster than them  ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 12:21pm
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True, but its not always about the speed its about the 'apparent speed'
and an 11ft cat would be a blast in a bit of breeze trying to keep the
hulls from digging in. As for moth/cherub hulls I suppose cherubs are about as close to a 2-handed moth as your going to get (except the tiger moth in the other thread) and the Paterson design moths/cherubs tend to share quite a few design features but a minimum chine width restriction keeps them pretty wide by moth standards even in the new generation boats like aqua ------------- |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 12:48pm
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There are only three boats that have totally got me inspired, the Hurricane 5.9, Tornado and 49er....(the reason that I sail the 9er is because I haven't been on a boat that can get me totaly addicted to her through pure adrenaline and have a very experienced crew scared of even looking at her after sailing her a few times). I have sailed both the fore-mentioned cats in pretty extreme conditions, F5 and upwards. The pure speed of the cats was what really got me excited on these boats. Although they are pretty long, when you realise what's actually going on, the buzz is phenominal. If you manufacture a cat based on moth dimensions, it might be a blast to sail but when you get Dart 15s and 16s overtaking you easily, and 5.9s and Tornados lapping you like there is no tommorrow it might take the thrill away. There are 16 ft development cat classes (F16s) which would definately be a good alternative to this idea......... (basically the cherubs of the cat classes). There are classes like the Stealth 18 which are utilising a lot of new developments too, not to mention the F18s. Is it really worth thinking about a "moth" cat? ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 3:19pm
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Changing the subject slightly for adrenalin rush the 9er is amazing like 49erGBR735HSC(you need a shorter name (scared me to death |
)It all came to an abrupt end on the back of a wave but what a blast ! Oh and they are REALLY cheap to buy with loads of kit (No I haven't got one for salePosted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 5:34pm
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1. What the hell is going on with that cat? Does it fly or something? Is it somewhere to hang your washing? Or do you do those flippy swingy gymnastics between the two bars? Must be a load of fun on a startline or at a mark rounding... 2. That doublehanded moth...looks to me like it's being helmed by an extra from Planet of the Apes. 3. The moth cat thingy rocks. Top photoshopping skills, I am impressed. If I sent you a pic of my boat, could you possibly do me a similar version, with the thing flat, trimmed, the kite up the right way and both crew in the boat? 4. Cheap 5000 (£1000) going at Draycote if anyone wants one... ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Cheeky
Date Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 5:46pm
Dude that's what you were on at the Cherub Nationals!!!!!
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Posted By: Cheeky
Date Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 5:56pm
don't you mean like this!
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Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 6:35pm
Thanks Iain, drop me an email with a pic or two and a description and ill see what I can do... ben@flatwater.co.uk ------------- |
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 8:18am
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I have heard that there is a guy in Western Australia who is extending 2 Moth hulls to 16 foot in an attempt to make an F16 catamaran. Seriously though, I don't see the advantage with turning a moth into a cat. The waterline length is just too short. The A class is the catamaran version of the Moth.
The A class did get down to less than 60 kg fully rigged at one stage before the class decided to set a more conservative minimum weight at 75 kg
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http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 4:03pm
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There are just too many reasons why a double moth won't work.
cost ie for 2 new identical boats = about £12,000, + extra for combining. If you go for cheap old boats, then the weight will be more like 2 x 40kg = 80 kg. Twin rigs are much less efficient than one big rig - maybe only 50 % more drive than single rig. Single rig would need big mast, sail, crossbeam etc etc = £££ or kgs. The drag is doubled, but only 150% drive = goes slower. More righting moment - but only if the windward hull flies out of the water - ie with leeward heel. And we all know how slow leeward heel is in a moth. The displacement taken by the lee hull is increased by the extra weight added ie 140 kg instead of 100kg. The hulls are tuned for 100kg displacement, as any fat person, or 2-up sailor will have noticed. Any extra righting moment and the larger pitch down force resulting has to be balanced by more T foil angle. or different bow shape, = more drag. For foiling the same applies, but worse - the windward heel ( that gives low drag ) won't work in the cat format, so more than double drag, much less than double force = slow. Also problems with keeping all the foils under the surface. If you want a light cat - the A-class would seem to have all the right stuff! But maybe you could build a (moth)² and prove me wrong! |
Posted By: riding shotgun
Date Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 4:35pm
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you have all fogotten the main reason for having a double moth, its kool..... its hip, its radl..........its like having a chopper motorbike, they are pretty much un-useable in most situations but asthetically nobody can touch them, you imagine sitting on a 'lion moth!!' fair enough you'd be watching people go past but you WOULD be kool!!
------------- sail 505, live a little |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 5:32pm
I'm only going to be using the bare hulls of older moths, and there's no way they're gonna weigh 40kg, more like 20kg
There was never any plans to use a double rig
I have a Cherub rig, part of a 49er rig, and part of an Int.14 rig already.
True speed isn't the issue, it's the perception of speed. Granted it's never going to win any races!
As above
You seem to have forgotten to factor in the dynamic lift from the hull when moving at speed. ie. windsurf boards
The risk of going down the mine is half the fun! The whole point was: - it would be great fun to build - it would be really interesting to see what happened - a bit of a laugh to sail Buying a cat just seems to destroy the whole object! ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 6:21pm
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Bloody hell guys, your all thinking far too far into this. Think about it, do you think it was sugested as a new concept for the ultimate cat? No. Its not going to be hooning past the A's for sure, and hell it might even be slower than a regular moth but thats missing the point entirely. I like 'shotguns analogy to choppers. Sure you can go quicker, sure you can have something more user friendly but theres something uniqely cool about them and people have a lot of fun riding them. Ive gotta admit though, im liking I_Luv_White's (moth)² name suggestion a fair bit more than 'lion moth' ------------- |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 6:57pm
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Isis and shotgun, you seem to have the right idea!
Andy, I'm sure your technically right, but speed isn't the issue here. If I wanted to go fast I would buy a powerboat! To quote a convo with Ben Isis: "if you want to feel like your going fast, get the shortest boat you can lay your mits on and cram it with rag" But I may adopt the (moth)² thing ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 7:06pm
Now, who up for starting a modernised 8ft skiff class?  ------------- |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 7:09pm
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I'm quite up for designing/building a 6ft skiff. They say your 1st design/
build is always crap/overweight. So might aswell get the first crap one out the way on something not too serious/expensive. ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 7:21pm
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I seriously considered an 10ft skiff a while back, got to the level of
begining to prototype it and then accidentaly found a cherub and
decided to waste my money on that instead
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Posted By: big man is back
Date Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 9:37am
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a six foot skiff would be cool but would you put foilers on it? ------------- maybe theres more to life than being really really really really..........really good looking |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 9:58am
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No. Just no. Youd need a foilbase considerably larger than you could reasonably acheive on a '6 to have any control whatsoever Skiffs dont need foils to fly, just a bit of wind and some waves and your getting airtime all the way home ------------- |
Posted By: big man is back
Date Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 2:57pm
thake that as a no then shall i ------------- maybe theres more to life than being really really really really..........really good looking |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 4:18pm
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yes.
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Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 8:10pm
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Why not just get a vortex?
or a classic Swift cat - a cut down shearwater with a solid deck, and hulls that appear to be closer together than the beam of the hulls. My comments earlier about your idea is why small cats don't work very well - light F16 cats are OK, but anything shorter or heavier has never been very successful. |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 8:55pm
Was that a rhetorical question or do you really want an answer? ------------- |