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Isis View Drop Down
Really should get out more
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Joined: 01 Sep 05
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Posts: 2753 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Inspired
    Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 6:21pm
Bloody hell guys, your all thinking far too far into this.

Think about it, do you think it was sugested as a new concept for the ultimate cat? No. Its not going to be hooning past the A's for sure, and hell it might even be slower than a regular moth but thats missing the point entirely.

I like 'shotguns analogy to choppers. Sure you can go quicker, sure you can have something more user friendly but theres something uniqely cool about them and people have a lot of fun riding them.

Ive gotta admit though, im liking I_Luv_White's (moth)² name suggestion a fair bit more than 'lion moth'

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Strawberry View Drop Down
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Posts: 1337 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 5:32pm
cost ie for 2 new identical boats = about £12,000, + extra for
combining
If you go for cheap old boats, then the weight will be more like 2 x 40kg
= 80 kg.

I'm only going to be using the bare hulls of older moths, and there's no
way they're gonna weigh 40kg, more like 20kg

Twin rigs are much less efficient than one big rig - maybe only 50
% more drive than single rig.

There was never any plans to use a double rig

Single rig would need big mast, sail, crossbeam etc etc = £££ or
kgs.

I have a Cherub rig, part of a 49er rig, and part of an Int.14 rig already.

The drag is doubled, but only 150% drive = goes slower.

True speed isn't the issue, it's the perception of speed. Granted it's never
going to win any races!

More righting moment - but only if the windward hull flies out of
the water - ie with leeward heel. And we all know how slow leeward heel
is in a moth.

As above

The displacement taken by the lee hull is increased by the extra
weight added ie 140 kg instead of 100kg. The hulls are tuned for 100kg
displacement, as any fat person, or 2-up sailor will have noticed.

You seem to have forgotten to factor in the dynamic lift from the hull
when moving at speed. ie. windsurf boards

Any extra righting moment and the larger pitch down force
resulting has to be balanced by more T foil angle. or different bow shape,
= more drag.

The risk of going down the mine is half the fun!

The whole point was:
- it would be great fun to build
- it would be really interesting to see what happened
- a bit of a laugh to sail

Buying a cat just seems to destroy the whole object!

Edited by Strawberry
Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry
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riding shotgun View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		Post Options Post Options   Quote riding shotgun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 4:35pm

you have all fogotten the main reason for having a double moth, its kool.....

its hip, its radl..........its like having a chopper motorbike, they are pretty much un-useable in most situations but asthetically nobody can touch them, you imagine sitting on a 'lion moth!!' fair enough you'd be watching people go past but you WOULD be kool!!

 
sail 505, live a little
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I luv Wight View Drop Down
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Posts: 628 		Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 4:03pm
There are just too many reasons why a double moth won't work.
cost ie for 2 new identical boats = about £12,000, + extra for combining.
If you go for cheap old boats, then the weight will be more like 2 x 40kg = 80 kg.
Twin rigs are much less efficient than one big rig - maybe only 50 % more drive than single rig.
Single rig would need big mast, sail, crossbeam etc etc = £££ or kgs.
The drag is doubled, but only 150% drive = goes slower.
More righting moment - but only if the windward hull flies out of the water - ie with leeward heel. And we all know how slow leeward heel is in a moth.
The displacement taken by the lee hull is increased by the extra weight added ie 140 kg instead of 100kg.
The hulls are tuned for 100kg displacement, as any fat person, or 2-up sailor will have noticed.
Any extra righting moment and the larger pitch down force resulting has to be balanced by more T foil angle. or different bow shape, = more drag.

For foiling the same applies, but worse - the windward heel ( that gives low drag ) won't work in the cat format, so more than double drag, much less than double force = slow.
Also problems with keeping all the foils under the surface.

If you want a light cat - the A-class would seem to have all the right stuff!

But maybe you could build a (moth)² and prove me wrong!
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Tornado_ALIVE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 05 at 8:18am

I have heard that there is a guy in Western Australia who is extending 2 Moth hulls to 16 foot in an attempt to make an F16 catamaran.

Seriously though, I don't see the advantage with turning a moth into a cat.  The waterline length is just too short.  The A class is the catamaran version of the Moth.

LOA   5.5m (18’) Width: 2.3m (7’6")
Mast (H)   9.1m (30’) Mast Size: 145 x 60 or 59mm
Sail Area   Total 13.9sqm (150sq’) Main 12.4sqm Mast 1.5sqm
Minimum Weight Rigged   75kg (165lb)
Crew  

One on trapeze

 

The A class did get down to less than 60 kg fully rigged at one stage before the class decided to set a more conservative minimum weight at 75 kg



Edited by Tornado_ALIVE

www.formula18alive.com
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Isis View Drop Down
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Posts: 2753 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 6:35pm
3.  The moth cat thingy rocks.  Top photoshopping skills, I am impressed.  If I sent you a pic of my boat, could you possibly do me a similar version, with the thing flat, trimmed, the kite up the right way and both crew in the boat?


Thanks Iain, drop me an email with a pic or two and a description and ill see what I can do...

ben@flatwater.co.uk
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Posts: 59 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cheeky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 5:56pm
don't you mean like this!
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Posts: 59 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cheeky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by neilw

Originally posted by tgruitt


There is already a boat called a tiger moth stu, It's a 2 man moth. Here
is a pic, sorry to piss on your fireworks mate!


Actually i can't find a pic, rare as rocking horse s*it!



Tiger moth - two man Int Moth designed and built by
Claridge. [IMG]http://www.cvrda.org/quiz/images/what_dinghy_3.jpg[/
IMG]



Dude that's what you were on at the Cherub Nationals!!!!!
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Iain C View Drop Down
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Posts: 1113 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 5:34pm

1.  What the hell is going on with that cat? Does it fly or something?  Is it somewhere to hang your washing?  Or do you do those flippy swingy gymnastics between the two bars?  Must be a load of fun on a startline or at a mark rounding...

2.  That doublehanded moth...looks to me like it's being helmed by an extra from Planet of the Apes.

3.  The moth cat thingy rocks.  Top photoshopping skills, I am impressed.  If I sent you a pic of my boat, could you possibly do me a similar version, with the thing flat, trimmed, the kite up the right way and both crew in the boat?

4.  Cheap 5000 (£1000) going at Draycote if anyone wants one...
RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"
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les5269 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1530 		Post Options Post Options   Quote les5269 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 05 at 3:19pm

Changing the subject slightly for adrenalin rush the 9er is amazing like 49erGBR735HSC(you need a shorter name )said ,but the 5000 is fab in any breeze.Last year we were recorded going downwind with the kite up in 48 knots !!

(scared me to death  )It all came to an abrupt end on the back of a wave but what a blast ! Oh and they are REALLY cheap to buy with loads of kit (No I haven't got one for sale )
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