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Skiffe View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 11:01am

Originally posted by redback

However technology moves on and there is a big development just around the corner - carbon rigs.  A cabon rig makes a huge difference and the faster the boat the bigger the difference.  Soon a carbon rig will be cheaper than ali, then is the time for some hard decisions.

 

I've been racing 12's n Sydney for 8 years and carbon rigs cost about the same as ali..... but when you break one they are all to easy to repair
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 11:17am

Originally posted by hurricane

apparently the reason for this is the increased usage of carbon to build windfarm blades and this has created a shortage. That is the story going around the cat fleets anyway!

That and increased demand from the aerospace industry has caused a shortage of supply, apparently.

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5532

 
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by hurricane

apparently the reason for this is the increased usage of carbon to build windfarm blades and this has created a shortage. That is the story going around the cat fleets anyway!

That and increased demand from the aerospace industry has caused a shortage of supply, apparently.

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5532

 

 

This is the story I've been told.  Means the price of my new toy is about to go up a fair few %

So really want to sell the Inter; make me an offer so I can beat the price rise of carbon

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JimC View Drop Down
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Originally posted by TonyL

Isn't the challenge for the likes of the RS400 to ensure this doesn't happen by making sure some elements of the package evolve over time, in the way that some of the class association driven boats have?    I'm thinking of the likes of the Fireball here, because think back 10-12 years where some thought the class was toast due to the competition from the new SMOD's from Laser, Topper etc.


I think typically the classes that have salvaged themselves - Scorpion even more than Fireball springs to mind - have done it much more through good organisation and planning than through radical changes in the boat.

The 400 has got a particular problem in that I believe the boat is unbalanced with too small a spinnaker for the fore and aft sail area. I imagine the rig was planned on what the market would stand at the time, and if sales are any guide it was well judged too. But if you were to put a bigger kite on then the hull shape might be a bit off - it feels very draggy at speed with that great roaring noise under the chainplates. Perhaps to make a more optimal boat the spinnaker should be made a bit bigger and the fore and aft sails smaller so it suits smaller crews? But then it would be competing much harder with the 200, so that wouldn't be so clever either... Besides who's going to want smaller sails!

Sometimes I think its better not to mess with a boat... Does anyone believe the world would be a better place if that horrible lashup of a twin trapeze FD at the trials that selected the 49er had gone through? Much better to have the FD in its historic sttyle and design for those fewer folk that like it I think.


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Chris Noble View Drop Down
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This is what development classes are for....
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Twin trapeze FD!! Whoa!! It will be canting keel F15s next!
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 12:15am

Originally posted by JimC



I think typically the classes that have salvaged themselves - Scorpion even more than Fireball springs to mind - have done it much more through good organisation and planning than through radical changes in the boat.
yle and design for those fewer folk that like it I think.

Can't comment on the Scorp but the Fireball went through some pretty radical construction changes to get where it is today plus developing beyond dacron sails.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 6:39am
Originally posted by Guest#260

the Fireball went through some pretty radical construction changes to get where it is today plus developing beyond dacron sails.


I wouldn't regard changing to dactron sails or changing some construction rules but in both cases keeping the shape and size the same asbeing radical changes. Sisn't the Fireball just make some cobnstruction changes to make mass production boats a bit easier to build?
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Iain C View Drop Down
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Posts: 1113 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 8:20am

The Fireball never went through any radical changes (apart from in the sixties where someone added a trapeze and a kite)

Foam sandwich appeared back in the late 80s, and the only real change in the shape was not a rule change anyway...the Aussies worked out there was a loophole in the rules allowing you to build with slightly fuller bows, giving better manners on the sea.

Winder boats have built the bulk of the recent UK boats, but there were a lot of Swiss built Duvoisins at the worlds this year (as well as Aussie YMS boats) plus a huge amount of older manufacturers' and homebuilt wood, all FRP and composite boats.

Fireballs have always been very conservative indeed WRT rules changes, and the kevlar sails change is still open to debate.  Many teams were still using Dacron instead, although hopefully initial problems with kevlar durability are now sorted with design development from the major lofts.  It is just that the Winder hull is such a good and well made product it looks a bit "samey" round the boatpark.  However, it is this controlled development that has allowed old boats to stay competitive...the 10th placed boat out of 179 at the worlds was GBR13945, that is now almost 1000 boats old, and probably dates from the 80s!

Although I personally would not like to see carbon masts just yet, as let's face it, with a rig as sensitive as a Fireballs, you're gonna need to build a mast to an exact set of "numbers" to use the Finn analogy, which is outside the scope of home builders, I can't see that allowing carbon in poles and tillers will make much of a difference, and is possible for the keen DIY amateur.

The one I struggle with is why FB's never went to a loose footed sail?  There's probably a good reason, and sailmaker care to comment?

 
RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 9:06am

Originally posted by JimC

The 400 has got a particular problem in that I believe the boat is unbalanced with too small a spinnaker for the fore and aft sail area. I imagine the rig was planned on what the market would stand at the time, and if sales are any guide it was well judged too. (snip) Perhaps to make a more optimal boat the spinnaker should be made a bit bigger and the fore and aft sails smaller so it suits smaller crews? But then it would be competing much harder with the 200, so that wouldn't be so clever either.

The 400 hull looks a lot like a Merlin, and of course the designer Morrison had designed a lot of Merlins but fallen from favour by the time the 400 was designed. Also, over the previous 15 years or so the optimum crew weight for a Merlin had gone from maybe 28 to 22 stone and a lot of Merlin teams wanted the rig changed to favour heavier crews again.

So I believe the crew weight the 400 was designed for was, in part, intended to attract Merlin owners of more ample proportions back into a Morrison-designed Merlin-type boat. That view was certainly common in the Merlin fleet at the time.

 
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