Stifled Development
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1051
Printed Date: 14 Aug 25 at 8:46pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Stifled Development
Posted By: Shingle
Subject: Stifled Development
Date Posted: 26 Sep 05 at 5:18pm
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Does the relationship between the RS association and LDC stifle mainstream dinghy development? For instance, the RS400 has been a fantastic craft but technology has moved on. I can’t help but feel that LDC will wait for something to impact on sales then counter it with there own version or wait until sales of a product diminish. But then a vast majority of people feel safe with the RS brand because the association will manage a classes circuit and residules are good. I do appreciate people are quite happy to class race older designs, but my direction is at those who want to go faster in something widely available. Don’t get me wrong LDC are successful, but is it right for the British sailing scene? ------------- Drink Feck girls! |
Replies:
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Sep 05 at 6:07pm
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Look at Nationals attendances http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=44 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=44 I see only two RS classes in the top 20. They are just one element in the scene. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 26 Sep 05 at 6:26pm
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I used to be the Chairman of the RS Class rules committee and in that period the rules development was driven by the sailors. LDC and the designer (mostly Phil Morrison) do have a right of veto on any change but will generally support what the sailors want. LDC never stood in the way of a rule change on commercial grounds. You could argue that they could do the opposite to what you are suggesting ... i.e. introduce a change which all the owners then have to retro fit giving them selves a nice peak in sales; but they have never done this as far as I know. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 26 Sep 05 at 8:12pm
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Same for a SMOD class association I helped run for a while and pretty understandable commercially. |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 27 Sep 05 at 7:22pm
| The RS400 is such a wonderful design it will persist in popularity for many years yet. However technology moves on and there is a big development just around the corner - carbon rigs. A cabon rig makes a huge difference and the faster the boat the bigger the difference. Soon a carbon rig will be cheaper than ali, then is the time for some hard decisions. |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 27 Sep 05 at 9:20pm
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Development comes from the development classes!
Eventually this gets watered down into production boats, and made easier to use, and cheaper etc ( and much more popular!) . The one-designs are 'modern' and the hottest latest thing for a while.... but development continues, and the OD eventually become a bit old-fashioned, and another new OD will take it's place. |
Posted By: TonyL
Date Posted: 27 Sep 05 at 9:56pm
Isn't the challenge for the likes of the RS400 to ensure this doesn't happen by making sure some elements of the package evolve over time, in the way that some of the class association driven boats have? I'm thinking of the likes of the Fireball here, because think back 10-12 years where some thought the class was toast due to the competition from the new SMOD's from Laser, Topper etc. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Sep 05 at 11:59pm
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Just like it has happened to the Laser & Topper ... I don't think so ... I think good boats that are enjoyed by their owners will endure - why can't you get off this dev class 'v' SMOD band wagon and recognise that both can enjoy long term success. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Adds
Date Posted: 28 Sep 05 at 1:20pm
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Redback, Carbon Rigs being cheaper than Ali rigs. I think that is a fair way off. As carbon has doubled in price this year.
This has put off the Fireball class for allowing carbon spinnaker poles as 18months ago they were the same price as the kevlar rapped poles. But now they are twice the price. ------------- Cheers Dudes |
Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 28 Sep 05 at 7:37pm
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apparently the reason for this is the increased usage of carbon to build windfarm blades and this has created a shortage. That is the story going around the cat fleets anyway! ------------- lifes to short to sail slow boats! RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007 |
Posted By: Skiffe
Date Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 11:01am
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I've been racing 12's n Sydney for 8 years and carbon rigs cost about the same as ali..... but when you break one they are all to easy to repair ------------- 12footers. The Only Way to FLY Remember Professionals built the titanic, Amateurs built the ark. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 11:17am
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That and increased demand from the aerospace industry has caused a shortage of supply, apparently. http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5532 - http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5532
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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 12:22pm
This is the story I've been told. Means the price of my new toy is about to go up a fair few % So really want to sell the Inter; make me an offer so I can beat the price rise of carbon ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 8:27pm
I think typically the classes that have salvaged themselves - Scorpion even more than Fireball springs to mind - have done it much more through good organisation and planning than through radical changes in the boat. The 400 has got a particular problem in that I believe the boat is unbalanced with too small a spinnaker for the fore and aft sail area. I imagine the rig was planned on what the market would stand at the time, and if sales are any guide it was well judged too. But if you were to put a bigger kite on then the hull shape might be a bit off - it feels very draggy at speed with that great roaring noise under the chainplates. Perhaps to make a more optimal boat the spinnaker should be made a bit bigger and the fore and aft sails smaller so it suits smaller crews? But then it would be competing much harder with the 200, so that wouldn't be so clever either... Besides who's going to want smaller sails! Sometimes I think its better not to mess with a boat... Does anyone believe the world would be a better place if that horrible lashup of a twin trapeze FD at the trials that selected the 49er had gone through? Much better to have the FD in its historic sttyle and design for those fewer folk that like it I think. |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 10:21pm
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This is what development classes are for.... ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 10:26pm
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Twin trapeze FD!! Whoa!! It will be canting keel F15s next! ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 12:15am
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Can't comment on the Scorp but the Fireball went through some pretty radical construction changes to get where it is today plus developing beyond dacron sails. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 6:39am
I wouldn't regard changing to dactron sails or changing some construction rules but in both cases keeping the shape and size the same asbeing radical changes. Sisn't the Fireball just make some cobnstruction changes to make mass production boats a bit easier to build? |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 8:20am
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The Fireball never went through any radical changes (apart from in the sixties where someone added a trapeze and a kite) Foam sandwich appeared back in the late 80s, and the only real change in the shape was not a rule change anyway...the Aussies worked out there was a loophole in the rules allowing you to build with slightly fuller bows, giving better manners on the sea. Winder boats have built the bulk of the recent UK boats, but there were a lot of Swiss built Duvoisins at the worlds this year (as well as Aussie YMS boats) plus a huge amount of older manufacturers' and homebuilt wood, all FRP and composite boats. Fireballs have always been very conservative indeed WRT rules changes, and the kevlar sails change is still open to debate. Many teams were still using Dacron instead, although hopefully initial problems with kevlar durability are now sorted with design development from the major lofts. It is just that the Winder hull is such a good and well made product it looks a bit "samey" round the boatpark. However, it is this controlled development that has allowed old boats to stay competitive...the 10th placed boat out of 179 at the worlds was GBR13945, that is now almost 1000 boats old, and probably dates from the 80s! Although I personally would not like to see carbon masts just yet, as let's face it, with a rig as sensitive as a Fireballs, you're gonna need to build a mast to an exact set of "numbers" to use the Finn analogy, which is outside the scope of home builders, I can't see that allowing carbon in poles and tillers will make much of a difference, and is possible for the keen DIY amateur. The one I struggle with is why FB's never went to a loose footed sail? There's probably a good reason, and sailmaker care to comment?
------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 9:06am
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The 400 hull looks a lot like a Merlin, and of course the designer Morrison had designed a lot of Merlins but fallen from favour by the time the 400 was designed. Also, over the previous 15 years or so the optimum crew weight for a Merlin had gone from maybe 28 to 22 stone and a lot of Merlin teams wanted the rig changed to favour heavier crews again. So I believe the crew weight the 400 was designed for was, in part, intended to attract Merlin owners of more ample proportions back into a Morrison-designed Merlin-type boat. That view was certainly common in the Merlin fleet at the time.
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 9:54am
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I was sailing Fireballs at the time most of these changes went through (won the nationals in 94) and most of us in the fleet felt the changes were quite radical at the time and all supported the progress. I guess it depends on your outlook; if you sail a development class it probably looked like small beer but for a one design they changes were quite significant. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: TonyL
Date Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 10:07am
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I think the original premise of this thread was that a SMOD was die
over time as new technology emerges, and is adopted into new SMOD
classes that will kill the old ones. I don't necessarily agree with that, as we've seen several examples of SMOD's evolving through careful class association led management. Even the dear old Laser has even got half decent sail controls nowadays! PS. I'm on the lookout for a 2 person boat to club race with my kids. See that early RS400's are now going for around £2k - seems great value to me or are they likely to be completly tatered at that price? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 10:33am
Why bother I should think. You get a very small decrease in the cost of a boom and a sail and maybe a tiny increase in boat speed, but it would make everyone think that their sails were outdated and that they needed new ones. |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 1:49pm
Ah, but it makes the jump to Carbon much easier  .------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 5:34pm
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It would make it easier to adjust the outhaul ... and make it quicker to rig and de- rig; now that really is a benefit. Rick ------------- |