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Classes fading in popularity

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smoking gun View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote smoking gun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Classes fading in popularity
    Posted: 21 Jun 05 at 4:18pm
With regard numbers at the Feva nationals,  these were heavily inflated by bought in jockies,  anyone who knows the Oppi fleet will recogonise a large number of entrants in loan boats,  but is this a basis for a long term future ?.  RS are spending huge amounts on pushing these boats,  with lots of advertising and a large demo fleet,  but to follow the thread,  what happens when they loose interest ?
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Jack Sparrow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 05 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by smoking gun

With regard numbers at the Feva nationals,  these
were heavily inflated by bought in jockies,  anyone who knows the Oppi
fleet will recogonise a large number of entrants in loan boats,  but is this
a basis for a long term future ?.  RS are spending huge amounts on
pushing these boats,  with lots of advertising and a large demo fleet,  but
to follow the thread,  what happens when they loose interest ?



I think this is one of my points. It's this kind of tactics and figures
manipulation to increase sails of a new SMOD's that is so difficult to
compete against in Dev classes.

We are all guilty of believing the 'Dark side', unwittingly or not and it is
the very pressure to re-coupe and increase profits that drive's perfectly
understandable marketing tricks. And draw targets away from other
brands. When you sell cigarettes in Advertising this is called 'Brand
Switching'. It's away of everyone involved with the process enabling
themselves to look like there hands are clean when they are really dirty.

This sort of thing can damage classes by drawing off members or
inducing change in a class which is unnecessary and costly to protect
there market position / or recreate there niche.

It's not so easy for a Dev class either as you can find yourself with difficult
decisions about development. Think N12. When they went double bottom
in a response to the RS200 they lost quite a few members. Some because
they had just invested in a new boat which was automatically devalued,
and others because they felt there boats were now not competitive. With
careful management and the lucky situation of having a large body of
members ( critical mass ) they have bounced back with a vengeance.

My point earlier about Racing Manufacturing Licences was in a way just to
explain that I think that there should be a health does of responsibility
from Large SMOD manufactures.

What they should be doing is either growing the sport with unique high
volume low cost boats targeted at the non sailing mass market ( get em
in Tesco's ) ( and to be fair this is happening of late..... although I haven't
been to Tesco's recently :-) ) or finding really new ways of sailing. For
instance they should of been developing a hydrofoiling boat. But what
sadly is the real situation, all to often, is that the Dev classes break down
the doors and then they come in like vultures to clean up. Think back to
the early 90's and Asymetrics. Not only that they dis all the Dev boats
with the marketing material, by brain washing everyone that One Design's
are the only fair way of racing. Yer right....

In the words of 'Public Enemy'..... 'Don't believe the Hype'!

Just though I'd add that although what I've just written sounds like a 'I
hate SMOD's' I don't. I just think that for a while back there the
manufactures were greedy and irresponsible towards sailing's long term
future.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 05 at 8:52pm

What a good airing - I'll pat myself on ther back for introducing the subject.  I'll return to some of the points later but I'd like to mention technology.  I sail a Laser 4000 and love it for its power but this is a class which I feel will fade because it's performance has been provided by technology and the technology is begining to look old. 

I aplaud the Blaze class they seem to have managed a difficult transition well.  They have effectively moved from being a class controlled by a manufacturer to a class managed by the members and in the process they have managed to update their design without alienating too many.  Now they have a unique and attractive boat which will persist for some time. 

There are a few other classes which seem to be going the same way, Contenders, Phantoms and Dutchmen with their carbon masts.  Having sailed a 800 I can tell you a carbon mast is the way to go, especially with the bigger faster, boats.

As an aside I must say it's a shame about the EPS, its a very nice boat to sail.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 05 at 9:13pm

Seems there is a bit of anti SMOD amongst the owners of dev classes.

I have owned Topper, 420, 470, Fireballs, I14, RS200, RS800, 29er and Musto Skiff plus sailing in few others

I have also been a member of the class committee for 5 of these classes.

The people make the difference BUT the boat has to be good to make people want to make the effort.

The 49er has been around for 12 years and still looks great ,,, and so has the Laser.

I'd like a boat to sail with the wife; the 200 was too slow and heavy, the 29er really a youth boat and the RS800 a little too much to cope with.

Seems crazy to say that there isn't a two man boat that we'd like but the only option that is a slightly interesting is a UK niche class which is a DIY effort which has no interest to me (that the Cherub BTW).

So, I'll stick with the Musto which I think will endure like the 49er has and will still  look current many years on ... perhaps it will even be an Olympic class in 2012? and Sarah will stick with her Laser Radial whilst the Cherubs and the 12ft skiff get themselves aligned - the 14's managed it...

Rick

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 05 at 9:29pm

Which SMOD's are seeing less than 15 new boats per year?

And how do we know the truth; Laser, RS and Topper have all padded their sail numbers to mislead the market; IMHO.

I spoke to the manufacture of a single sourced component for a SMOD design who stated that he'd sold less than half the items needed to match the claims of the manufacture.

Perhaps this is where Y&Y or the RYA could help by properly auditing sail numbers to protect the sailing public from this bogus practice.

The Y&Y Racing Classes Review sort of does this but some classes don't provide complete forms so their are no new boat figures - perhaps they should only print COMPLETE submissions that can be verified.

Y&Y should have more journalistic teeth; the do have a near monopoly on the dinghy media so shouldn't be too scared of the impact on their advertising sales.

Rick

PS: Before you ask I am not going to name any names or classes on the above statement.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 05 at 9:47pm

Originally posted by Guest#260

Seems there is a bit of anti SMOD amongst the owners of dev classes.

Not certain about that. I just think it is useful to be realistic and I've been around long enough to see what happens to most SMODs once the hype dies down. I've helped run a SMOD class association, incidentally, and seen some of the positives and negatives of manufacturer involvement in a class. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 05 at 9:37am
Just thought I should add that I to have owned and competitively raced
many boats, of these some have been SMOD's.... Laser 2, Buzz, 29er. I
have also raced and owned an Int Moth, N12 and currently am on the
committee for the UK Cherubs.

A side point, the Cherubs and 12 skiff's are aligned. If you have a Cherub
and want to sail as a 12 ft Skiff you can do it right now and compete at
the Interdoms e.t.c

QUOTE: Seems crazy to say that there isn't a two man boat that we'd like
but the only option that is a slightly interesting is a UK niche class which
is a DIY effort which has no interest to me (that the Cherub BTW). RICK

You don't have to make a Cherub DIY there are many v good boat
builders out there that will make you one, just like they do for Merlins,
N12's, fireballs e.t.c, e.t.c so just because you don't see many Cherubs
with gel coat on ( cos it's heavy ) doesn't mean you can't make it like that
if you want, just talk to your boat builder like thousands of other people.

I hope you don't mind me using you as an example: but this is a classic
situation where the overwhelming brand presence of SMOD's
manufactures market positioning causes you to call into question the
viability of a Dev class, this is exactly what the Marketing is designed to
do. And if people like you, highly educated and well versed in all the
aspects of sailing are convinced by it what hope have the general public?

Buy the way... shortly RMW will be making a UK Cherub but what's the
difference between him and lets say Winder or Nigel Waller e.t.c e.t.c is it
because he make's SMOD's or is it just Gel coat?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 05 at 1:23pm
Maybe there is a bit of anti SMOD feeling from development class sailors but there is quite a lot of anti development class feeling from some SMOD sailors. do the phrases "its just Checkbook Sailing" or "These development classes have killer handicaps" sound familiar.
If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 05 at 1:52pm

Back just after the war Fairey Marine became the 1st builder in the modern era of SMODs, with the Firefly and others. When they ceased production in the early 70's, the Firefly had a really difficult time of things, with very few boats being built for the next 20 years. Thanks to the strength of the class association, and the longevity of the hulls, the class survived. The class now has a builder who builds good boats again (Rondar) and suddenly an almost 60 year old boat is out selling most of the modern SMODs.

So don't write off SMODs too soon. If the design is good, and the boat appeals enough to people to make them want to fight for the class, then they will be able to overcome such things as builders marketing budgets running out. Judging which will survive and which will die, however, is beyond me. Some great designs of the 60's and 70's have vanished, yet some really nasty ones have sold thousands and are still going strong, so I'd hate to say what will happen in the future!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowhammer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 05 at 2:21pm

On the 3000, Laser controlled the SMOD spec of the boat through a very detialed construction manual that they contracted their hull/sail/rig/foil/etc suppliers against. This is the same for other Laser models ... is it the same for Topper/RS/Ovington?

The Laser 3000 class rules which are managed by the National Class Association are fairly loose, mainly constraining the way the boat is fitted out and rigged, and restricting the source of major components to Laser OEM supplied items ... is this the same for other SMOD classes?

From Laser's perspective, this ensures that they get maximum return on their design investment and marketing costs. The Class should benefit from a reduced administrative burden with simple, frozen rules and pre-measured parts, allowing them to concentrate on organising events. Owners should benefit from pricing leverage that long runs on a fixed standard of components should bring.

On the face of it, it looks to be a winning formula, but for the fact that the world moves on and the one design standard is overtaken by new cheeper or lighter or better performing ways of building boats ... does this mean most SMODs are doomed at birth to be consigned to history within a decade?



Edited by yellowhammer
Laser 3000 @ Leigh & Lowton SC
www.3000class.org.uk
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