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L4000 / 29er ratings

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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 May 05 at 5:12pm
The RYA don't publish numbers until they have stats, so although manufacturers may suggest numbers the only influence that will have is if clubs doing returns agree with the estimate. I would expect that the early estimates would be a bit high because it takes a few seasons for people to find out how to rig sail the boat to best advantage.

I remember a mate who knows a bit about rigs saying that he'd boat a new xxxxx, set it up according to the book, and thought it looked dreadful, but figured he'd better try it. After a few weeks of being boatspeeded he thought "**** it", set it up how he thought it ought to be, and jumped up near the top of the club fleet. Then did some comparisons and discovered that the top of the club fleet weren't using the official settings, but ones pretty close to what he'd worked out.

So until the top of the fleet had worked out what the rig settings should be that class was probably handicapped artificially slow.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 05 at 4:58pm
Most "new" classes initially have a rating suggested by the manufacturer. Is it that favourable ratings are suggested in order to boost results and publicity ?  I realise this will ultimately be ironed out but the ratings in reality vary very little year on year.  The RS 800 actually became marginally slower in 2004.  It races off  822 whereas the 49er with what appears to be similar vital statistics races off 747, some 10 % faster !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 05 at 4:15pm

Actually the 4000 loves a breeze and it likes the waves.  Its very happy in 25K when some of the other high performance skiffs need olympians to keep them upright.  At that windspeed (in my limited experience) its also faster than an Osprey upwind and down.   However I'd also say that the current handicap is about right for the 29er and the 4000.  Lets face it we are only talking 2% when a good shift can be worth more than that.

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Ian99 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 05 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by squeek

neiowmin

Is that a special 29er word?  Can you translate for everyone who doesn't sail one?

When you get a bit of real breeze* 4000s and 29ers (and pretty much everything else "modern") don't sail to their handicap as they are still on the beach with the boat tied down.

*Real Breeze is the wind range 25-35 knots when the Contender and Fireball sailors are thinking about maybe pulling a bit more cunningham on....... For proper sailing conditions, you also need waves at least 10 feet tall.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote squeek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 05 at 12:47pm

hey less of the daddy/parents insults. most of the 9er sailor r not quite like that.....thats more oppie/twinkie style.(not than im against them or anything )

i'm sure if you got your nat champ 9er sailor and nat champ 4000 sailor they'd both be equally skilled sailors.

when i sailed a 4000 it starts neiowmin on a reach in like 7knots much more than a 9er does (could hav been due to lack of weight for a 4000) n im sure if the wind blew its boll**ks off they'd both represent there py pretty truthfully

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 05 at 12:28pm

Originally posted by Skiffman

the 29er is....generally sailed by youths, so there is a higher quility of fleet.

Ah, the arrogance of youth.

So you expect to be getting steadily worse at sailing as you go on, do you? Might as well give up now.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote KnightMare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 05 at 11:58am
There is another aspect of that argument. The top 29er guys will be doin lots of training and events and wont always be sailing at the club so the numbers that will have been sent from the clubs will not include the top sailors all the time. this will make the 29er seem to be a slower boat overall.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 05 at 11:50am

There is another factor with the 29er which I'd not thought of. The 29ers are sailed by young fit kids who generally don't give up (not sure if this is because of their enthusiasm or the fear of Daddy telling them off if they retire from a race). Therefore there will be a number of 29ers in club races (which is probably where the people just starting out in the 29er sail it first to learn how to sail it!) who actually finish on the water back with the GP14s etc. because of the large number of capsizes which are inevitable when changing from a Topper / Oppi / Cadet into a high performance boat. This will really help the handicap end up slower than it should be.

For the "once a month overweight" types, after about three capsizes in a race, the prospect of an extra pint in the club bar is better than a miserable last place finish!

Of course the 29er kids are too young to have been corrupted by the evil influence of alcohol and see the bar as somewhere where their parents sit while watching them sail and would never be tempted by the prospect of an early pint 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 05 at 11:13am

The 29er is mostly sailed by young, well trained, fit, keen,  'red hot', perfectly sized (for the boat) people.Oh yeh and Dad buys a new kite every time 'jony or mary' want one.

The 4000 is mostly sailed by older, less fit,  once a month club sailors who are probably overweight and have had  little or no training and for whom the 4000 is often their first asymmetric. And the new kite? - only after the new kitchen, weekend in Rome etc!

I'm suprised the handicaps aren't the other way around.

It would be interesting to see actual speed differences with crews of equal ability. I suspect Ian99s assessment would be quite accurate. 

 

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Ian99 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 05 at 9:27am
Originally posted by Skiffman

I think that the laser 4000 has the potential to go as fast as a 29er but the 29er is a more demanding boat to sail and generally sailed by youths, so there is a higher quility of fleet. Not to do with the quality of sailors but mainly because we train very hard (6hours+ of land training a week and then sail everyweekend and during the summer hols).

Just what I think but then I am biased because a sail a 29er.

You've got that the wrong way round. To end up with the handicap "slower" than the boat actually is, you actually need a lot of not very good sailors in the fleet, so the "average" 29er sailor would not be as good as the "average" 4000 sailor for this to happen.

The more likely "cause" of the problem is probably that your club is somewhere where the conditions favour the 29er (I'd guess on flat water, generally fairly breezy). The 4000 leaves 29ers for dead in very light winds (it can also leave 49ers behind if they can't fill their kites ) Also in a really harsh chop the 4000 is probably quite a bit quicker as it won't get chucked around as much by the sea - something which certainly happens to the B14 and really slows you down.

All the new "skiff style" boats will get left well behind on handicap in a really big sea though by genuine seaworthy performance boats such as the 505 and Osprey though, but very few people sail handicap races in these conditions.

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