Hi,

once again during our last regatta 29er and Laser 4000 where discussing about ratings. Actually it seems that in france the 29er as an attractive rating. Laser should go faster than 29er.

Here are the coed :

RS400 : 0,7750

29er : 0,7917

Laser 4000 : 0,8083

49er : 0,9000

Could you let me know what you think of it ? Do you think 29er should go as fast Laser 4000 ? Does your ratings depends on wind speed ?

I think that the 29er is a fair bit quicker and at our 2 clubs our handicap has been altered to 882 from 924 which is quite a large change. There are several laser 4000 that sail there but there handicap is still 906.

I think that the laser 4000 has the potential to go as fast as a 29er but the 29er is a more demanding boat to sail and generally sailed by youths, so there is a higher quility of fleet. Not to do with the quality of sailors but mainly because we train very hard (6hours+ of land training a week and then sail everyweekend and during the summer hols).

Just what I think but then I am biased because a sail a 29er.

You've got that the wrong way round. To end up with the handicap "slower" than the boat actually is, you actually need a lot of not very good sailors in the fleet, so the "average" 29er sailor would not be as good as the "average" 4000 sailor for this to happen.

The more likely "cause" of the problem is probably that your club is somewhere where the conditions favour the 29er (I'd guess on flat water, generally fairly breezy). The 4000 leaves 29ers for dead in very light winds (it can also leave 49ers behind if they can't fill their kites ) Also in a really harsh chop the 4000 is probably quite a bit quicker as it won't get chucked around as much by the sea - something which certainly happens to the B14 and really slows you down.

All the new "skiff style" boats will get left well behind on handicap in a really big sea though by genuine seaworthy performance boats such as the 505 and Osprey though, but very few people sail handicap races in these conditions.

The 29er is mostly sailed by young, well trained, fit, keen,  'red hot', perfectly sized (for the boat) people.Oh yeh and Dad buys a new kite every time 'jony or mary' want one.

The 4000 is mostly sailed by older, less fit,  once a month club sailors who are probably overweight and have had  little or no training and for whom the 4000 is often their first asymmetric. And the new kite? - only after the new kitchen, weekend in Rome etc!

I'm suprised the handicaps aren't the other way around.

It would be interesting to see actual speed differences with crews of equal ability. I suspect Ian99s assessment would be quite accurate. 

There is another factor with the 29er which I'd not thought of. The 29ers are sailed by young fit kids who generally don't give up (not sure if this is because of their enthusiasm or the fear of Daddy telling them off if they retire from a race). Therefore there will be a number of 29ers in club races (which is probably where the people just starting out in the 29er sail it first to learn how to sail it!) who actually finish on the water back with the GP14s etc. because of the large number of capsizes which are inevitable when changing from a Topper / Oppi / Cadet into a high performance boat. This will really help the handicap end up slower than it should be.

For the "once a month overweight" types, after about three capsizes in a race, the prospect of an extra pint in the club bar is better than a miserable last place finish!

Of course the 29er kids are too young to have been corrupted by the evil influence of alcohol and see the bar as somewhere where their parents sit while watching them sail and would never be tempted by the prospect of an early pint 

Ah, the arrogance of youth.

So you expect to be getting steadily worse at sailing as you go on, do you? Might as well give up now.

hey less of the daddy/parents insults. most of the 9er sailor r not quite like that.....thats more oppie/twinkie style.(not than im against them or anything)

i'm sure if you got your nat champ 9er sailor and nat champ 4000 sailor they'd both be equally skilled sailors.

when i sailed a 4000 it starts neiowmin on a reach in like 7knots much more than a 9er does (could hav been due to lack of weight for a 4000) n im sure if the wind blew its boll**ks off they'd both represent there py pretty truthfully

Is that a special 29er word? Can you translate for everyone who doesn't sail one?

When you get a bit of real breeze* 4000s and 29ers (and pretty much everything else "modern") don't sail to their handicap as they are still on the beach with the boat tied down.

*Real Breeze is the wind range 25-35 knots when the Contender and Fireball sailors are thinking about maybe pulling a bit more cunningham on....... For proper sailing conditions, you also need waves at least 10 feet tall.

Actually the 4000 loves a breeze and it likes the waves.  Its very happy in 25K when some of the other high performance skiffs need olympians to keep them upright.  At that windspeed (in my limited experience) its also faster than an Osprey upwind and down.   However I'd also say that the current handicap is about right for the 29er and the 4000.  Lets face it we are only talking 2% when a good shift can be worth more than that.

The arguments about skiffs not handling breeze are in actual fact a bit pointless, they are designed to be fully powered up at far lower windspeeds that boats like the 420 or fireball, and as a result seem overpowered in 30+ knots of breeze. 

As for pulling the cunningham on, its effect to flatten the main and let the upper leech blade off in the gusts actually makes the main more efficient in high winspeeds, where minimising drag created by sail camber is more important as a result of the high appearent windpeeds associated with planing to windward. 

Yeah i dont think its fair too say all that daddy and mummy stuff about 29er sailors and the youth sailors because none of my family sail at all so all they are involved in is the dropping off and picking up. All the rest i have to do myself!

I train

I save all the possible money to keep the boat in racing condition

I have to do all the maintenance

I can never get a new sail etc by 'just asking daddy' , i have to save up for absolutely ages and do as amny jobs as possible

and all my school work haves to be done in the week so i can sail at the weekend!

So no if you talk to most of them, many youth sailors get far by not asking daddy but by working hard and have the detremination to keep gonig and do well !

What the modern skiff type boats do have is a modern rig.  Their adjustability is a revelation (but then I used to sail a Laser).  Its quite possible to make my boat feel underpowered in 20Knots and yet fully powered in 8.  The hulls too contribute to the ability of the boats in high winds.  Mine does drag its bum in the light stuff but the minimal rocker, and slim waterline does mean that as the wind gets stronger it just goes faster, unlike the more conventional hulls which seem to have a speed barrier which they will not exceed.

For those of you who haven't tried one consider this.  You put the kite up and being a big kite they really go very fast.  When you get hit by a gust you bear away and go faster still and if you get hit by another, stronger gust, you simply bear away a bit more and go even faster.  It seems endless - the more wind the faster and deeper you go.  The only snag is the manouevers which can be tricky since you have a narrow hull and a big rig.

It happens in most modern skiffs that don't have smaller rigs when it gets windier. The 29er's kite starts collapsing in about 25knots, its because the drag on the sails and boat stop it accelerating as Yann said so the apprent wind moves closer to the true wind angle. This is why the main loads up and then kite collapses behind the main. There is a trick to keep the kite set in 29ers but does require good teamwork as if you start doing it too much the rudder starts to cavitate from an increase in the angle of attack and the crew has to flog the kite very quickly to regain control.