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YouthSailing, the RYA and Catamarans
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Worthy View Drop Down
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Posts: 511 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Worthy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: YouthSailing, the RYA and Catamarans
    Posted: 11 Oct 07 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by Worthy

Originally posted by JimC


But never to the extent of actually supplying boats as they did with the Catamarans.


Please would you clarify the boats to which you are referring.  Are you talking about the Dart 16's, the Hobie 16's back in 1998 or the Dragoon Charter programme which was through the Hobie dealer?

I would just like to give some background to what you are referring to to put it in context for other readers.


Jim

Please would you confirm to what you were referring.  I don't want to leave this issue hanging.  I want to know so that I am able to give the reader the relevant history so that they understand the full picture.
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TornadoSail2012 View Drop Down
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Posts: 39 		Post Options Post Options   Quote TornadoSail2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 07 at 12:41am

I think if you read each country's proposal or response closely, you will find that no country openly states that they do not want multihulls in the Olympics.  What they are doing is stating their position through ommission.   Nudge, nudge, wink, wink!!

There are many concerns that can be stated about catamarans and the Olympics.

1) The lack of an established development path or route to the Olympics.

2) The percieved cost of a racing platform.

3) The lack of a corporate or company provided platform.

4) Catamaran racers/racing: being percieved as, renagade, out side the law, free spirits, non-conformists and other similar views.  We as multihull sailors have fed into this position for years and helped to foster this image.  Right now, when we have all matured (think of the aging hippies in the States), it has come to bite us in the arse.

5) The overall cost of campaigning a catamaran compared to those of other boats.  Again a perception.  A Star, Ynling and a Tornado are approximately the same.  The 49er, 470 and Finns are just below that.  The Laser, Laser Radial and RS:X boards are on the lower end of campaining costs.  With this stated, any Olympic sailing campaign is already cost prohibitive to most.

6) The space needed to store these boats.  The arguement can and has been made as to the massive amount of space used by cats for dry/mast-up storage.  Any of us sailing Tornados are aware of this issue.  We also do not want to have to break the Tornado down after each days sailing.  Two hours set-up, two hours breakdown at the end of each day, not likely.

While I am sure that other issues and concerns can be raised concerning the viability of catamarans for Olympic competition, these are the main issues and concerns racing through the minds that want to decide this issue.

Please do not get me wrong, I WANT CATAMARANS in the Olympics.  To me if you are going to take away catamarans as an Olympic class, why not just do away with sailing completely.  This then affects the entire sailing community equally and then maybe we could have a proper discussion on the issue.  Otherwise I keep hearing complaints from the multihull world about treatment and respect and a basic shut-up and quit your complaining from the otherside of the isle.

I will never understand how it can be viewed that we need 6 dinghy classes, 2 board classes and 2 keelboat classes and in the same breath state that all aspects of sailing are well represented.  Either represent all of us or drop us completely.  There will be many who will not understand this arguement, but again it is a "united we stand" point of view.  If the entire sailing world were fighting for existence and representation in the Olympics, we would speak with one voice instead of with two distinctly different ones.  right now it is monohull versus multihull and never the two shall meet.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 07 at 1:56am
Originally posted by Tornado_ALIVE

Originally posted by Chris 249

in NSW, many cats are raced at specialist cat clubs and we consistently medal. Forbes and Booth, for example, come from a club that bans monos. So does recent A Class world champ Steve Brewin; the 2006 Dragoon world champs; and former Hobie 16 world champs. Bundock's home club is (was) pretty much a cat club, although it does allow monos in.

Hi Chris,

Just to set the record straight........

Kurnell Cat Club does not ban monos or boards.  Last season we allowed an NS14 to join us after he approached.  With mono fleets on the same body of water, they tend to sail at those clubs.  Likewise with those clubs and catamarans.


Steve, I've been told KCC wouldn't allow my board to race - and that was when we were already there to race the 4.9 but it had problems. And look at Kurnell CATAMARAN Club's Objectives - Part 3 of the constitition. Its objectives are to

"(a) To promote and encourage interest in the sport of sailing and racing of catamarans.
(b) To promote and encourage physical fitness and good fellowship among those interested in
catamaran sailing.
(c) To assist, encourage and educate Members of the Club towards the enjoyment of sailing.
(d) To affiliate and co-operate with the Yachting Association of Australia and the
Associations or Authorities of all boat classes represented in the Club, together with other
organisations having objects and interests similar to the Club.
(e) The Club shall not promote politics or sectarianism."

That's fairly specific. Sure, the club has recently taken over SSSC and therefore now may allow monos in, but the Kurnell CATAMARAN Club itself has surely a CAT club AS ITS NAME AND CONSTITUTION SAYS.


Pittwater Catamaran Club is now called the Palm Beach Sailing Club and includes monos and multis in its constitution.

Look at Pittwater/Palm Beach. Its overview starts by saying

"Palm Beach Sailing Club, (formerly Pittwater Catamaran Club) races every Saturday from Sand Point, off Iluka Road, Palm Beach.

All catamaran classes are welcome. Racing commences at 1pm, with current fleet sizes ranging from 10 to 20 boats, consisting of mainly Hobie 16s, Hobie 17s, Hobie 18s, Taipans, A Class and Nacra catamarans. To date, the club has accumulated more Olympic sailing medals than any other club in Australia.
Palm Beach Sailing Club caters for both beginner and experienced catamaran sailors."

The "sailing overview" section says "Palm Beach Sailing Club was formed in 1963 as Pittwater Catamaran Club - a club for off the beach Catamaran sailors.....The club's philosophy is to make all members welcome and to do all it can to ensure that everybody gets the most out of their Catamaran sailing experience."

There can be little doubt that's basically a CAT club (which is not a bad thing at all). I got the windsurfers into Palm Beach Sailing Club about '85. At that time it was a few Corsairs and a Fireball or two. The cats were separate as PCC. PBSC basiclaly died and the cats took it over as PBSC had property (which AFAIK they actually offered to the windsurfing association first as the boards had more involvement with the PBSC than the cats had).

Both club say they are clubs for cat sailing. That's perfectly fine......there's windsurfing clubs for windsurfers, yacht clubs for yachts.


Tuggerah Lakes has as mentions is also a mixed fleet club as with many other clubs around NSW.

I don’t know of any club in NSW that is restricted to cats, however KCC and PBSC then to only see cats race there as they are in close proximity to other clubs which cater to monos.


KCC's constitution says it's for cat sailors; PBSC's website says it's a cat club. PCC was separate to PBSC for many years as PCC was a CAT club.

Now I do believe a certain club in Sydney was created by Tornado Sailors (not restricted to multies) and was the home base for Ts in Sydney for a long time.  Slowly the Ts were pushed out as the club believed they were taking up too much room and the club could fit twice as many monos in the storage compound.  Today they welcolme the cats and have invited us to become members there, however would be restricted to only a couple of spots in the boat yard.  If more than a couple of sailors wish to store their cats, then monos will take preference over the cats.



If you're referring to WSC, it was formed on May 8 1953 by MOTH sailors. It was  apparently quite open to cats as it had a Quickcat class years before Tornadoes were designed.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with cat clubs, the fact that they can concentrate on cats could help cats which would only be a good thing. I just pointed out to Hurrycane that any "problem" with British cat sailing may not be linked to the fact that some clubs there ban them, since cat-only clubs can create brilliant sailors.
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Chew my RS View Drop Down
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Posts: 790 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 07 at 8:51am

There are a few reasons why some UK clubs ban cats:

a. The stretch of water is too small

b. The roads leading to the clubs are too narrow

c. They take up too much space in the boat park

d. The launch/recovery facilities are inadequate (eg steep shingle beach or narrow slipway)

For that reason cats will never be sailed in as many places as mono's.  Its just a fact of life. 

IMHO cats are not very suitable for children to sail together. I do believe they are great for sailing with your dad (and many good sailors have been produced this way) but as junior/youth boats they are normally too stable and slow to turn, yet also potentially too dangerous. Unless someone can develop a decent youth cat, youths won't sail them.  We (sailors and the RYA) just need to accept that whilst you can be a champion dinghy sailor in your mid 20's, cat champs will probably be in their mid 30's. There is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to drop them from the Games. Perhaps its not the 15-20 year olds the RYA should be looking to develop, but the 20-25 year olds?

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catmandoo View Drop Down
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Posts: 545 		Post Options Post Options   Quote catmandoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 07 at 10:11am

"IMHO cats are not very suitable for children to sail together. I do believe they are great for sailing with your dad (and many good sailors have been produced this way) but as junior/youth boats they are normally too stable and slow to turn, yet also potentially too dangerous. Unless someone can develop a decent youth cat, youths won't sail them.  We (sailors and the RYA) just need to accept that whilst you can be a champion dinghy sailor in your mid 20's, cat champs will probably be in their mid 30's. There is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't seem to be a good enough reason to drop them from the Games. Perhaps its not the 15-20 year olds the RYA should be looking to develop, but the 20-25 year olds? "

 

Have you ever been to France and seen kids catamaran sailing there ???

 

sounds like no .

 

They teach kids as young as primary school age in school sailing lessons to sail tiny 8 foot catamarans with tiny sails alongside others in oppies , its an amazing site to see these toddlers setting off - Dangerous - Hardly .
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 07 at 10:21am
And France has a huge number of kids sailing cats.

So why not introduce similar programmes in other countries? Wouldn't it be great if cat sailors got together and agreed to support junior cat classes? Optis and Cadets don't suit all kids, if there were junior cats around the overall number of sailors could increase, cats would be more secure in the Youth Worlds, everyone would be happy!

Sounds like the sort of structure an International Cat Sailors Committee could create , with great benefits all round. If an ICSC presented ISAF, the RYA etc with an agreed development plan, and the signatures of 1600 cat sailors who were not just prepared to protest but also to play a part in training juniors and youth, finding funding for junior cat fleets etc, then surely they would not dare dump cats? These days, it would only take a few weeks to set up a representative body of cat sailors and come up with a plan.

I don't think any country is looking at dumping boards, which are less "establishment" than cats, but have an established group of Junior classes and an international body (although even that gives me the pits at times).

It can be a great feeling to start your own junior class, and know that you are probably ensuring the future of a type of sailing you love, and that you are no longer subject to what your National Authority wants.


Edited by Chris 249
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Chew my RS View Drop Down
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Posts: 790 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 07 at 10:44am

No, I haven't, and that is fantastic to hear, but:

Do they teach kids to sail as well as oppies do?  Do they make them better cat sailors?  Are they relevant training for bigger cats e.g. Tornadoes?

The French don't have a markedly superior success in Tornados compared to Austria, Australia, Germany, Spain or even the UK.  So do these little boats really help? Surely the very basics of how to sail can be learnt at least as well in an Oppie, Mirror or Topper? The sublteties specific to cat sailing can't be learnt on something so basic, can they? May be they can, but I doubt it.

Maybe what is missing (in this country at least) is the next stage cat - the one suitable for teenagers. Personally I think the Hobie 16 is way off the mark. Cats are generally more potentially dangerous because a) you crash at higher speeds, b) they are less manoeuvrable c) you have further to fall when you capsize d) they are harder to right.  By the same token of course, they are less likely to capsize in the first place. 

Cats are great - if I sailed on the sea I would sail one again. But in the same way that we don't teach kids to sail in 2.4m class boats if we want to win Star medals, do we really need to teach them in cats to win cat medals? Obviously, at some point you need to start sailing cats, and the sooner the better. But IMHO there are good reasons why that doesn't normally happen before late teens, so maybe the RYA should aim the training programmes at young adults rather than youths. The downside is that some sailors will become so focussed on dinghies that they become blind to the possibilities of sailing cats by that age.
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The French are Good!

Current ISAF Tornado Rankings:
FRA 4, 5, 12, 14, 24
GER 3, 13, 19
GBR 6, 16, 18
ESP 2, 20
AUT, 10, 23
ITA 17, 25
AUS 1
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Tornado_ALIVE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 07 at 11:59am

Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Tornado_ALIVE

Hi Chris,

Just to set the record straight........

Kurnell Cat Club does not ban monos or boards.  Last season we allowed an NS14 to join us after he approached.  With mono fleets on the same body of water, they tend to sail at those clubs.  Likewise with those clubs and catamarans.

 

Steve, I've been told KCC wouldn't allow my board to race - and that was when we were already there to race the 4.9 but it had problems.

 

You must have asked PB........   LOL.  I’ll give it a shot one day on my board.

As mentioned above, they don’t seem to have a problem with monos joining us.  They may state the words ‘Catamaran’ in the constitution; however they do not state they ban monos.  Kind of like the RYA not stating they want cats out, but just don’t support them.  Difference is with KCC however, is that they said to the NS14, they are welcome to come join us.

As for WSC, I was under the impression that the club was started by Tornado sailors.  I do not have firsthand knowledge, only going on word of mouth so may be incorrect.  From what I have heard though, the T sailors played an instrumental part in the club and its development, then later were squeezed out because they take up too much room in the boat park.  That however is past and the current committee should not feel like they are to blame in any shape or form.  In fact the current committee have invited us to sail with them and have allowed Storage for my boat over winter for their winter series as well as Macca’s T for a season.  The 49er sailors were also exited for us to join them and were warming to the idea off cats joining the club and racing alongside them.  As they said, we actually have a lot in common as far as our racing lines go and boat performance (compared to 49ers and Lasers)

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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 07 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by Chew my RS

............... But in the same way that we don't teach kids to sail in 2.4m class boats if we want to win Star medals, do we really need to teach them in cats to win cat medals? Obviously, at some point you need to start sailing cats, and the sooner the better. But IMHO there are good reasons why that doesn't normally happen before late teens, so maybe the RYA should aim the training programmes at young adults rather than youths. The downside is that some sailors will become so focussed on dinghies that they become blind to the possibilities of sailing cats by that age.

And that IMHO is what has happened.

So going back to and earlier posting of mine.... I think this is another in the system is wrong category.
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