Paul

Not sure 'Brian walked away' tells the whole story.  Where is the current youth cat training programme?  When you look at the actual track record of the sailors that the scheme produced then in terms of medals received per £'s spent by the RYA I would have thought the youth mutihull scheme was just about on top of the pile. 

Congrats on your news btw and can you remove the non club member from the summer results

Hi have just come back from Weymouth, Outraged about RYA lack of interest in cat sailing,  WHAT IS GOING ON?? Its an insult to ALL cat sailors, Our best results in last ISAF sailing was in Hobie 16. Brian Phipps worked long and hard, to set up a youth sailing scheme.

Whether you sail a Dart 18 at club level, or Tornado at Olympic level, you need to let the RYA know how you feel!!!!!!

Does somoene know an appropiate email address to write to ?

Or get every catsailor at your club to write !

why don't you ???

They are quite happy to take our money through club affiliation fees , at our club over 50% of dinghy racers are cat sailors .

i think its a stab in the back for cat sailing whatever way you look at it .

someone with a bit of savvy should start an on line petition , think the government actually provides a site for doing so , i remember something was presented to Tony blair about fuel tax or similar - fek all happened funnily enough even with millions of signatures , but well worth considering .

I have just finished a days work only to come home to a disgruntled husband and son,  firstly what a good idea of the RY A  to  announce  the team for the 2008 olympics before the 'sail  for gold regatta'  has even began?????  Does the RYA not  see that it  has upset many of our boys and girls. Also is  ISAF saying that any cat sailor will be good enough to sail in monohulls or are they saying that cat sailors are below the standard of other sailors . Why are they trying to disillusion our youngster should we not support people like brian phipps and now paul buttler whom have helped and are trying to help these young women and men in their sport . Can they please confirm who won medals at the last event and what they were sailing.  Where and what is the RYA  trying to achive is this not the governing body to whom we in the sailing world should look up to!!    

We as parents of these webbed feet little wonders should ask for answers?        &nbs p;  many thanks lindsay piggott

Whoah there Lindsay! you might need to replace the keyboard after you bashed that one out.

ISAF are not sugesting anything, they just open their Events Committee meeting up to proposals from national and class authorities. Among about 200 other proposals, the RYA is asking them for cats to be dropped from youth and olympic levels.

The fact that they[rya] think it is easy to put a mono sailor on a cat is a complication/decision that will go away if they can abolish top level cat racing through ISAF.

Hope the team got on ok today

Paul

So once again we follow the good old USA into the Crapper... hey why not it worked in Iraq!!!!!

What do the RYA think they are playing at? Mind you you i think we should have seen the writing on the wall when they dropped the F18 development squad and made them jump up to Tornados... perhaps they were trying to price the squad out then?

To many conspiricies.... but whatever it is it is a catastrophie for sailing as a whole.

I stand corrected they have indeed

So why have the RYA taken this bold step?

Does the RYA represent Sailing UK - - - no on the basis of excluding multihull classes. WE should be campaigning for two multihull classes at olympic level 2 hander and single hander. It might liven up the boring menu of single handers (apart from the 49er)

Perhaps we should campign for the dopping of the Royal tag if they are going to exclude us

Simon wrote:

"Does somoene know an appropiate email address to write to"

Yes - try

rod.carr(at)rya.org.uk

Bob

Copy of e sent to Rod Car

And here's mine!

Good point Simon. I have edited the EMail address on my posting. Catmandoo needs to do the same.

Regards

Bob

PS I'm pleased that Rod is getting some mail. Well done guys.

Bob,

Close, but not enough.  This forum software keeps the HTML behind the text and so the bots will still see the email address.  You need to delete the whole thing and re-add it.

Click your post and it still resolved the email address.

he desrves all the spam he gets

weres your letter scooby as schrs dude I reckon you should speak up , don't worry about being  less than political about it , wasn't a concern for RYA UK .

But then he changes his EMail address, or does not bother to read the serious stuff in amongst the spam. It is better for our cause to change it as suggested by Simon

Cheers

Bob

I know !

just couldn't actually decipher in lay terms what scooby was saying !- delete whole entry and resubmitt ??

will give it a try .   (edit - done )

but doesn't take einstein to work out an e address for Mr Car , take any organisation web address and prefix with someones name with a dot an 9/10's you get a legit address , guess if I've worked that out spammers are light years ahead .

anyway lets get lots of letters - and we need a petition (one petition we can all sign ) thats what they did in US .

OK

Done (I hope)

Cheers

Bob

Some of us have to work for a living.  I'll do something over the weekend....

Guess I'm just lucky that money falls from the sky into my lap then

The more letters the merrier

I'm of to celebrate my good fortune

I wish !

What one has to ask is why the RYA 2012 submission is basically the submission the USA wanted to put forward, HOWEVER, they were stopped by petitioning their countries Olympic Committee and made a radical U-turn and inluded 2 cats in their draft resolution!!!

Perhaps the aim is between them is to keep the status quo? Who knows and whats more do they care....answer I think is a resounding NO!!!!!!

Oh heck - you are right. I had missed the other one.

The link to it is

  http://www2.sailing.org/meetings/2007november/papers/Sub_103.pdf - http://www2.sailing.org/meetings/2007november/papers/Sub_103 .pdf

So it is even worse than I had figured.

Keep up the campaign guys.

regards

Bob

Interesting stuf on this topic by a former top man in ISAF;

Paul Henderson: Sailing and the 2012 Olympics

To Fellow Buttheads:
I trust you will take the following biased opinion as being from a recently excommunicated "Pope of Sailing" and also a Member of the IOC. The IOC, in their wisdom, set the maximums for the 2012 London Games at 28 sports, 300 events, and 10,500 athletes. Here is what that means for sailing:

1) On sailing being kicked out of the Olympics:
Each sport is voted on by the 120 Members of the IOC, and it takes 50% +1 to remain Olympic. For the vote on events to be held at the London 2012 games, sailing received over 70% support. Of the sports that were dropped for 2012, Baseball got 35% and Softball 50% (missing the +1). Rugby 7's and Squash were voted on to replace the two deleted sports. However, they got only approx. 35% of the vote so were not admitted. The result is that there will be only 26 sports for London and a slot for 500 more athletes and two missing events. Several years ago a tabloid polled 100 of the movers and shakers of the Olympics who were asked the question: “What sports should remain in the Olympics?” Amongst these people, sailing ranked 8th, tying with Soccer out of the 33 sports, which included the "wanabees". By the way, Sailing is the sport the now IOC President started in as he rose up the IOC ladder. Long story short, sailing looks solid.

2) On sailing being promoted on TV during the Olympics:
Of the 28 sports, 14 get minimal TV. Sailing is one of them. Nothing sailing does will ever change this. Sailing is a participatory sport. However, Sailing was the number 5 sport in Olympic hits on the Internet. That is our medium and to prostitute the integrity of the sport for some "pie-in-the-sky" TV dream is ridiculous.

3) On sailing needing more countries competing in the Olympics:
Sailing gets close to 60 nations, which places it in the top half of the 28 sports. Sailing has had over 20 countries win medals in the last several Olympics, which is excellent, and shows how broad-based our sport is. This statement has many facets, as sailors must be sent by their National Olympic Committee (NOC). The Sailing authority has little power, including US Sailing Assn (USSA) and the Canadian Yachting Assn (CYA). Many countries have much more restrictive policies than the ISAF standard imposed by the IOC. While USA, by an act of congress, must send any athlete who qualifies (after years of fighting Canada also), many European countries will not send a competitor unless they are ranked in the top 8 countries. Even if you have 40 countries allowed in the Laser, it does not matter to the Europeans. If you are not in the top 8, you’re not going. How many countries can you fit into the top 8?

The emerging countries have difficulty qualifying at major regattas, so ISAF fills with these countries. I personally took on this responsibility to take the flak. The truth is that if a sailor could get their NOC to send them, then we could find a slot in the Laser and Boards. In the other classes, possibly only one competitor in each class was ever discarded. At 400 sailors and 11 classes, it was a minor inconvenience.

4) The 2012 Games: 10 Events, 380 sailors and more Women:
ISAF received the 11th event for 2000, which put the Star back in with the agreement that the event would be used in Athens 2004 for the Women's Keelboat. ISAF agreed that we would go back to 10 for London 2012. There is really no need, but the IOC is holding ISAF to the agreement (too bad for the UK - the premier sailing nation). Dropping 1 class and going down from 400 to 380 really means each remaining class gets more, as each of the now 11 events has each more than the 20 sailors deleted. In Savannah 1996, the women were at 19%. The IOC demands each sport be over 30%. In Athens 2004, sailing had over 35% women. Sailing is hitting this target, and any class changes will not be touching this requirement.

Having pontificated on the above, lets get to my bias on the classes. Sailors sail boats and that should be the criteria, not the equipment (classes). People and the sport should be the focus. ISAF does not pick classes per se. The classes are only the equipment used in a specific event. Sailing, like most sports, dictates the size and shape of the athlete done by the equipment selected. Sailing must pick the classes that allow sailors of all size and gender to compete. Singlehanded sailing is very restrictive on the size of the sailor as it dictates a narrow band of physique. I am also accused of being adamant that the sport is "Sailing" not "Air Rowing" (as the boardsailors do). Justifiably so! Therefore I would consider the following for the 10 classes:

1) There must be 4 classes where the women can compete: Single, Double, Keel, Mixed Doubles.
2) The Finn, Star, Women's Keelboat must remain so as to have classes which are geared to larger body shapes.
3) Cats and Skiffs should be sailed as Kinetics is of minimal help. Sailing is the sport! I would have a skiff for men and another for the women. I would also have two Cats - one high performance and the other mixed doubles.
4) The Laser is unchallenged for men and women.

If there are any slots left then let others, and they will, decide. There is another issue that must not be forgotten. Sailing is one of the Summer Sports, which is accessible to the disabled in the Paralympics. It is essential the keelboats remain so the facilities are in place for these wonderful, challenged sailors.

Paul Henderson
Ex Everything Else

--------------------

Sent the following

A very interesting and well informed article. Many thanks for sharing it with us.

Regards

Bob

PS FYI - I have complained in writing. I think it involves the RYA in more work and gives them a better opportunity to respond. If anyone else wants to do this the address is as follows:

Mr Rod Carr

RYA House

Ensign Way

Hamble

Southampton

SO31 4TA

Rod Carr has replied to me.  He did not say it ws private, so here you go:

Clearly by not communicating meant they could get it through under the radar!!!!!!

Yes,

Rod Carr has sent the same policy document to all those who have complained by EMail.

I'm hoping for something better or a policy reversal myself.

Let's hope that other nations have no truck with it. I cannot imagine the French agreeing, can you?

Cheers

Bob

So hopefully know they are in the dung.

Hi Chris,

Everyone is entitled to their own views but I suspect that your statistics are very dodgy. When I do the above calculation I get 4.5% of craft sailed in Nationals are Cats - not 0.04% as you state. In any case the numbers do not support retaining 2 windsurfer events in the Olympics and no catamaran events.

The highly unsatisfactory aspect of all this was that the RYA developed a strategy behind closed doors and were following it through with their submissions to the ISAF without any discusion in the sailing public at large - not at least until we found the submissions (thanks go to the French for steering us towards these submissions before the conference). I suspect that they are submissions of convenience (to the RYA). I can see that it makes life easier for the RYA coaching staff if they exclude catamarans.

It is good that Rod Carr was forced to rush out a quick stretegy document on a Sunday. This document (as copied above by Simon) is being sent out to all those who complained to Rod. I got sent it several times yesterday. The fact that it is copied above should not stop people complaining. It is the only way we have to express our dissatisfaction and hopefully getting the submissions withdrawn or modified.

Regards

Bob

However although there is an aim for a 50-50 split. The IOC have made sure that by 2012 there are only 10 classes, ISAF have agreed to this. So I guess its down to each country to support the best 10 classes that they see medal prospects in.

In no way am I supporting the RYAs stance or the way they have conducted themselves, it has been disgusting and underhand.

In fairness the only reason the youths are in the Olympic arena now is because the RYA pulled the funding on the F18!

Totally agree that cat sailing is a mixed sex sport and should be exempt from a 50-50 mix.

I too, am disappointed with Mr Carr's reply, knidly reproduced by Scooby_Simon (on page five). I detect a whiff of treachery from the RYA. Cat sailors have been let down, and consultation with the multihull community has been non-existant. Instead, the RYA has forgotten how to represent our people, and has chosen to follow an agenda of its own.

Take for example, Carr's remarks about funding from the National Lottery. It is usually very difficult to obtain lottery funding. And when it is given, there are many conditions attached. Among these, are a requirement the sexes are treated equally.

Put more succinctly, the lottery people have got their fingers up Mr Carr's wotsit, thereby opening and closing his mouth for him. Unfortunately, he can't see that he's a puppet.

This is the danger of National Lottery funding. Mr Carr has been stitched into a straightjacket, and all he can do is to eulogise on the 29ers, and the medal hopes of the little darlings that sail them. He has compromised his position for the very reason that he cannot serve two masters. (Matt 6, v 24).

There is no call for Mr Carr to mess on his own door step. (He says he has been a cat sailor for 30 years). He should therefore begin to represent our sailors for once. As he rightly puts it, it may be a hard decision for him. 

Soggy Doggie.

Whilst we should look at the statistics behind these figures we should also look at the structure in place for these countries. The majority have a good structure for sailing in all types of boats and NOT just monohulls.

I think Mr Carrs mention of Olympic lottery funding is in response to my and others comments regarding Cat sailors funding of the RYA , I was makingthe point that all racing cat sailors part fund the RYA through affiliation and personal membership , Lottery funding of Olympic teams etc is irrelevant , we as cat sailors should expect some positive representation through our funded corporate body not the exclusion of our sport from youth and olympic competition !!! funded by who ever.  I severely doubt the lottery have any views on competitg fleets and leave this to the RYA,

ps many of us l fund the lottery too !

Rodd Carrs response is most unnerving .

Chris 249

If we take your argument as having some meaning for a minute would you say that 4.5% of the sailing fraternity should therefore have zero class attendance at the Olympics?  Of all the dinghy and yacht classes how many individual sailors competed in more than one class?  And exactly how many sailors attended the Yngling nationals - I can't find a report on that one.

The RYA are selling us down the river qiute frankly but why? The cost of the tornado campaign is obviously prohibitive (but no more so than the afore-mentioned Yngling) and the confusion over the youth cat over recent years can't have helped. 

When we look at the medals won by the youth cat squad with ever reducing funding then surely it is a very successful part of the youth racing programme.  For me, both the youth training and Olympic Cat class (whatever it should be) should be fully supported by our National body.

I don't think the Olympics should try to be represenative of our sport ... I think it is the pinnacle of sailing and can't possible represent all activities that may occour under the banner of sailing ...

If it was representative then female participation would not be 35% for example ...

Then why bother with any of the Olympics at all? Across all sections of the olympics sports are represented by a  full cross section. We are not proposing all sections of sailing are represented, what we want like the other sports is a fair crosssection monohull, board and multihull. 

Are we confident with our sport Cat sailing is really the Dogz ***! As an ex Int 14 Sailor I know that the bang for the buck equation is in our favour. Can we tell the RYA/ISAF to sod off and set up our own National/European/World body. Laser downwind force 6 brill - upwind pants - cats can do both!!

I think it is important this debate should be seen by cat sailors in other countries, especially european countries.

So, if you have ever attended and made friends at Carnac or Texel, then please let them know. I am sure they will support us, and may even lobby their own authorities.

PS Catmandoo: I entirely agree with your post on page 6.

Chris 249

If we take your argument as having some meaning for a minute would
you say that 4.5% of the sailing fraternity should therefore have zero class
attendance at the Olympics? 

The RYA are selling us down the river qiute frankly but why? The cost
of the tornado campaign is obviously prohibitive (but no more so than the
afore-mentioned Yngling) and the confusion over the youth cat over
recent years can't have helped. 

There's been enormous confusion over the 420 and 29er too.....they
are both much more popular than the cats.

When we
look at the medals won by the youth cat squad with ever reducing
funding then surely it is a very successful part of the youth racing
programme. For me, both the youth training and Olympic Cat class
(whatever it should be) should be fully supported by our National body.

[/

Sport is just sport and there are loads of different types & events.

Which broard base of sport is represented by hammer throwing? none, it's just a sport that happens to be in the Olympics.

The sailing classes should be those that provide a good level test and perhaps offer the media somthing .... because the Olympics is a big commercial event.

They were also helped by the fact that 1 in 7 sailors sail cats. They went straight to the IOC/USOC with their petition on the grounds that their federeation was not being representative, this could have lead to the USSA being thrown out as  a body on the USOC.

We don't have those kind of numbers to aid us and as yet the facts on which the RYA have made their decision, and Mr Carr will stand behind, have not been published.

The RYA have completely underestimated the ground feeling on this issue. 

Their plan of timing has been well thought out. Knowing that it would take a couple of weeks to sort a petition out. WE MUST ACT NOW and get every cat sailor at our clubs to sign

Sailing does offer the media something but as on an earlier post we are more internet based than outright television.

Couch potatoe (American) isn't interested so TV isn't.

Catmandoo, if you could set that up that would be great. If you are not going to have time perhaps someone else who has the technology/knowledge could do it?

As a back-stop we can do a hard copy petition at the Grafham Cat Open which will probably net 200+ signatures but an online petition seems like a better move in the short term.

What do you think?

Bob

Do you work for Y&Y? How about YOU setting up an online petition for us if Catmandoo cannot?

We could draft the words of the petition if you can do the clever bit?

What do you say?

Regards

Bob

i'm up to the eyeballs at moment, praps not best for the job either , someone with a less jaundiced view of life may be more suitable , and better informed !

online petition I reckon is way to go .

What i can do though is once one is up is bandy it about to help get max signatures

Corr - that was quick!

Jon has put the following words

"The RYA has recently made a submission to ISAF to remove the catamaran as a youth boat for 2009, and to remove the catamaran as an Olympic boat for 2012.

These submissions by the RYA were made without any consultation with the community.

Please send this petition to all of your sailing friends (catamaran sailors or not).

Sign this petition to show your objection to this move by the RYA."

Can I suggest that we change the words to:

"The RYA has recently made submissions to ISAF to remove the catamaran as a youth boat for 2009, and to remove the catamaran as an Olympic boat for 2012.

These submissions by the RYA were made without any consultation with the sailing community. We request that the submissions are withdrawn before the ISAF conference in early November and replaced by alternative submissions which support the use of catamarans both in future Olympics (2012 and beyond) and for youth training.

Please send this petition to all of your sailing friends"

looks good and do it quick , and make it final ,

he done it and signatures rolling in (edit )

Well done Jon.

I have signed the petition and I also believe that Y&Y is planning pieces on this subject in the next two issues of the magazine.

We can all raise awareness through our own club and class association forums and mailing lists. Is the catamaran.co.uk mailing list still going?

Comments on the wording:

We should probably refer to the RYA submissions 103-07 and 129-07 (that allows people to find the source documents- maybe with hyperlinks). In fact 103-07 doesn't actually give the RYAs position on the 2012 Olympic Multihull, it simply fails to propose it, which is not quite the same as them actively recommending to drop the youth multihull from 2009 onwards.

Well done John

Don't forget the wifes an girlfriends as theres nothing worse than a cat sailor with a bad head!!!!!!

Jon

Was thinking more for the petition!!!!

Originally posted by Worthy Originally posted by Stuart O Jon Was thinking more for the petition!!!! Jeremy has signed it so he must know now. Petition address again:  http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/index.html - http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/index .html

I've done it and I have a few contacts via my (and others) work on SCHRS.

 I have to wonder why i am a member of the rya, for my money what do i get?

If I sailed dinghys to the level i am competing at in f18s, I would have a youth squad to train with, regatta support and coaching.  Whilst the f18s did have this it was dispanded over night, with the result of people losing out after buying the selected boat(hobie tiger) over other designs.

I am currently considering ringing up the rya and asking how I cancel my membership and I going to suggest  on here that if there is not a radical u-turn by the RYA THAT ALL CAT SAILORS CANCEL THEIR MEMBERSHIP IN PROTEST FOR OUR TREATMENT by our governing body.

Nice to see future and past Olympians signing it.

Just a prompt Helms get your crews to sign it as well and crews get your helms to do it. On a rough estimate we should be able to get over a 1000 signatures that way. So lets make it more.

WELL DONE TO ALL THOSE INVOLVED AND THOSE THAT HAVE ALREADY SIGNED

Before going off the deep end about the RYA proposal to the ISAF Annual Conference to drop the cat from the Youth Worlds, has anyone looked to see how many GBR Youths actually take part in the various classes at the annual Youth Championships (the primary indicator for choosing the GBR Youth Worlds teams)?

Looking at the attendances for the last two years, the Hobie had seven entries in 2007 (8 in 2006).  Compare this with the 29er (49 in 2007, 33 in 2006 despite not being an ISAF boat), the 420 (29 in 2007 despite not being an ISAF boat, and 41 in 2006), the Laser (36 and 38), the Laser Radial (100 and 112) and even the RSX (16 and 17).

In simple terms, GBR Youth sailors don't seem to want to sail a cat at Youth events, so it seems like a sensible proposal from the RYA that the Youth Worlds is sailed in boats which are popular in GBR, otherwise the RYA are really not representing the interests of youth sailors in this country.

If the RYA just wanted Youth medals, they should probably encourage ISAF to keep the cat, as GBR are good in the cat, and not many other countries sail them!  But no, this proposal seems to be in the interests of a majority of Youth Sailors - well done to the RYA! 

Issues about Olympic classes are a whole different ball game.....  

Worthy,

Is there any way you can correct the incorrect comments by voter 165 ?

Sailor Pete,

You fail to understand many issues, the most important of which, is that the RYA wants an undisputed control over the Olympic agenda. The RYA doesn't want consultation. It is clear to many of us the RYA has planned this sting over a long period. This is shameful contempt. It would have been ridiculous for the RYA to invest in cat training if it already had plans to dump the multihulls.

It is interesting that you mention the 29ers and 420s. Could I ask you how many of these race at your club on a normal weekend? At my club, we have two 29ers in the boat park and they seldom race together. We have no 420s, which are perceived as naff. Instead, we have RS Fevas, and catamarans.

But the great thing about cats is that they are adult boats, too. Adults have greater staying power than children. This means our cadets have guaranteed competition, whereas in the 29ers they don't.

I think voter 165 is correct - and he's entitled to his view, so shouldn't his comment stand?

I think his point is that the RYA submission nominates eight of the ten event slots for 2012, leaving the remaining two up to ISAF, so catamarans could have one or both of the remaining slots.  The petition wording is incorrect because the RYA submission is not to " to remove the catamaran as an Olympic boat for 2012".

Even if there are loads of signatures, it seems a bit pointless if the petition is incorrect...  

Done. Me bad !

This seems very short-sighted. Surely as many different types of sailing as possible should be represented at the Olympic Games - single/double handed dinghy mono/multi fleet racing, keelboat fleet racing, windsurfer fleet racing, match racing, team racing... By actively seeking to narrow this down the RYA seem to be making it easier for the men weilding axes in the future. They should be trying to broaden the type of sailing represented (making it a safer platform) rather than actively start to commit seppuku...  

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/index.html - http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/index .ht ml

165 has signed the petition which is confirmation that he agrees to put his name to the statement , why is he using the comment section to contradict his signature.

Lets hope others are not so confused as to the purpose of signing a petition and trying to use the comment as a soapbox to air their views regarding the wording of the  petition itself .

The petition starter John Worthington hasn't hidden his identity and can easily be contacted .

Ive had an interesting response from Rod Carr which he asked me to keep confidentdial. General gist is that the RYA do NOT think the ROI is good at youth and at Olympic level in multihulls and is blaming the lack of non RYA training on the poor ROI.

[thick mode]

what is ROI ?

[/thick mode]