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YouthSailing, the RYA and Catamarans
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TornadoSail2012 View Drop Down
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Posts: 39 		Post Options Post Options   Quote TornadoSail2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: YouthSailing, the RYA and Catamarans
    Posted: 03 Oct 07 at 9:49pm

Originally posted by johninda

i sail a 29er and am of coarse for the 29er being put in there. But can someone explain to me why we have to have a multi-hull? I don't see the harm in dropping it.

johninda,

 

Do you have an issue with the 49er, 470, Laser, Star or Ynling being dropped?  Right now on the board for exclussion are multihulls and sailboards as well as possibly the Star class.  The issues are two-fold.  First being the RYA making the proposal without consulting the sailing world at large.  The second is that neither multihulls or windsurfers will have Olympic representation and that means monohull boats of one type or another will make up the entire representation to the world at large of what sailing is around the world.  With multihull sailing making up 20-25% of the worldwide body of active racing, it seems that multihulls should be included in the Olympics.  One spot at the games accounts for 10% of the participating classes.  If you add a Women's multihull you now are at 20% representation and that comes close to mirroring the worldwide participation of multihull sailors.  Does this answer why the issue is of concern to those of us who actively sail and race multihulls.  As an ex-Tornado sailor and builder, I have seen this fight before and do not want to have to fight it again, but I will and many others will as well.
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TornadoSail2012 View Drop Down
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Posts: 39 		Post Options Post Options   Quote TornadoSail2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 07 at 11:19pm

Originally posted by BarneyS

Before this becomes all out war could I quietly suggest that the cat sailing community sits down and carefully takes a look at what the RYA have proposed and perhaps more importantly did NOT propose.

As JimC points out the petition, even in its edited form, is incorrect and misleading.  He is not playing semantics (Stuart O) but pointing out that two of the 'facts' in the original petition are clearly wrong.

1) The RYA are not seeking "to remove the catamaran as an Olympic boat for 2012."  (The edit added at the end of the petition in an attempt to clarify this is not clear enough - you should have changed the original wording).  The petition, even in it's revised form, is still misleading.  Just read the comments added AFTER the edit.  From these you will see that the majority of those signing have yet to work out that the RYA are not asking for catamarans to be removed from the Olympics.

2)  The RYA did NOT make these submissions "without any consultation with the sailing community".   As JimC points out the RYA followed it's usual proceedure in preparing these submissions, as it did with all other submissions to the ISAF conference.  As pointed out by several others in this forum thread, the RYA has a well established system of committees with representations from the sailing community being allowed at many stages.  If Cat sailors don't feel represented please go and join the party.  i.e. join the RYA and volunteer to get on some of the committees or get yourself elected to RYA Council. 


Cat sailors, please get your house in order before your meeting with the RYA on 8 October.   The RYA are, in many peoples eyes, the most successful National Authority of any sport.  You may not agree with their actions, but please make sure you are disagreeing with the facts of the case, not a misleading set of inaccuracies.


We now have a situation where over 1000 people have signed a petition which does not stand up to close scrutiny and the Cat sailing community seem to believe that the RYA are trying to destroy them.  All this is based on circulation of incorrect and misleading information.  What a mess!

Good luck on October 8th but please stick to the facts not prejudices or rumours.

(By the way I speak as a PR professional who regularly writes press releases, consultation text and other words that MUST be factually correct.  I would have lost my job if I'd been responsible for publishing the misleading and factually incorrect words in either the original or edited petition.)

BarneyS

It is agreed that some of this has been mis-stated to the detriment of the arguement so to cut to the chase 1) The RYA submitted its proposal to ISAF and multihulls "were not included" in its submission.  The RYA did not in writing submit for the removal of multihulls from the Olympics, it just did not come out in writing to support of them as a continuing Olympic class.  2) The RYA did submit in its proposal that youth multihulls be dropped as of 2009. That is it in a nutshell.  I am a member of my sailing association, USSailing and of ISAF, USACA, Tornado Association and Laser Class.  I do think you need to belong to have a say in your affairs and I would join the RYA if I were allowed too being a US not UK resident.
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TornadoSail2012 View Drop Down
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Posts: 39 		Post Options Post Options   Quote TornadoSail2012 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 07 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by Jon Emmett You could not be more wrong about my caring about multihulls being present at 2012, as I am intending to start a Tornado campaign as soon as I get over my current injury: [/QUOTE

 

I apologize for mis-interpretting your tone and words.  It came accross as though to me.  Good luck with the tornado campaign.  They are great boats to s

 

I apologize for mis-interpretting your tone and words.  It came accross as though to me.  Good luck with the tornado campaign.  They are great boats to sail and a great class association behind them.



Edited by TornadoSail2012
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johnready View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		Post Options Post Options   Quote johnready Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 07 at 12:32am
In light of todays RYA meeting:

It will be interesting to see if the 'committee' recognize that they have operated in a 'high handed' and unacceptable way with regard to catamaran sailors.

I hope they follow on from todays meeting with an invititation to all catamaran class chairmen and racing organisations to discuss our future and how we can do it better, together.

After all, its the way their constitution requires them to operate.

sail fast, the only way, 'CATAMARAN'!
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 07 at 1:25am
Originally posted by TornadoSail2012

[With multihull sailing making up 20-25% of the worldwide body of active racing, it seems that multihulls should be included in the Olympics. 



Where do multis make up 20-25% of active racing?

The US cat sailors made this claim - and when I said it did not seem to be correct, John Williams, the head of the US National Multihull Championship committee, replied "I'm right there with you on the 25% assertion. Since it was first brought up on a conference call about two weeks ago, I've been asking where that number comes from... so far, it seems only to have been pulled from some pretty thin anecdotal evidence. I've not used that figure as a result and have urged others to not rely on it to strengthen the case."

So the guy who largely runs US multis agrees that the 25% figure isn't true.

Look at this listing of US National Title attendances http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2006/2006_odsurvey.php

Out of the 1163 boats in the top 20 classes, there's only 65 cats. And that survey ignores three of the most popular classes (C420s, CFJs and Optis) because they are junior.  In other words, far from being 25% of the boats the cats are just 5.5% of the boats in the major classes - and that's not counting boards, big yachts or junior classes.

In the UK, the cats seem to make up something like 5% at national level.....okay, that may not be precise but it's in the ball park. Look at Y & Y's own National Championships Attendance Table, there's something like 370 cats out of 5000 boats - and that doesn't include rating yachts or boards.

In Australia, the three most popular cat classes TOGETHER are almost exactly as popular as either the big rig Laser OR Radial, alone.

In France, the cat classes ARE strong but still there's no evidence that they are 25% of the total.

The same thing applies to boards - they are not as small as some make out, but they are nowhere near as popular (for racing) as dinghies and yachts.

The repeated use of incorrect figures doesn't make the board or multi case look stronger, it makes it look like windsurfers and cat sailors are not getting or giving an accurate picture of the sport.


Re Laser costs - use it for a year, and you sell it and lose just the price of a new main and new mainsheet. That's total boat costs of $1000 (Aus) a year. That's cheap. Many of the top sailors don't bother to select "good gear" because the biggest titles are held on supplied gear.

While Marstrom Ts are great is there any actual hard objective evidence that the consistency of Marstrom Ts is greater than the consistency of Laser gear?




Edited by Chris 249
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Jon Emmett View Drop Down
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Posts: 988 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 07 at 7:55am

Originally posted by bigcat

perhaps this fuss will force ISAF into having a proper youth development policy for cats......maybe this was the rya's intention in putting the submission forward?

My comments regards the pigs was in relation to the "this" being the RYA's inention in putting the submission forward.

Very much looking forward to going Tornado sailing (I think as the obvious choice for the Olympics class catamaran).

Regardless of what happens in November I will start Tornado sailing in April but I am said to say if the class was dropped from the Olympics then I would stop sailing it...

 

 
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 07 at 10:57am
Originally posted by Jon Emmett

Originally posted by bigcat

perhaps this fuss will force ISAF into having a proper youth development policy for cats......maybe this was the rya's intention in putting the submission forward?

My comments regards the pigs was in relation to the "this" being the RYA's inention in putting the submission forward.

Very much looking forward to going Tornado sailing (I think as the obvious choice for the Olympics class catamaran).

Regardless of what happens in November I will start Tornado sailing in April but I am said to say if the class was dropped from the Olympics then I would stop sailing it...

 

 

 

BigCat,

Would not it be the RYA's responsibility for building OUR devlopment policy for Cats ?

 

Looks like the ISAF understand that Cats are cool, why else yould they have a picture of a cat on their marketing page:

 

http://www.isaf.com/1642.php

Banner as at 4th Oct 2007 ; 10:57 BST.

 



Edited by Scooby_simon
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Posts: 2 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sailgurus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 07 at 11:10am

Its a repeat of the great British "let's get a power base built and bully the world" attitude seen predominantly in cricket but also other sports.  "Its our game and how dare Johny Foreigner try to play OUR game" belongs to the last century.  Energy should go into playing the game, not falsely controlling it.

In the free world people vote with their feet - hence the popularity of cat sailing (about 25% of sailors according to some surveys).  If the rya feel they need to control the political world of sailing in order to continue achieving success, they are much mistaken in their approach.  Sailing is a modern sport despite the efforts of traditionalists.  The day of the fast boat is here - get real!!

This reality applies more than we realise to our next generation sailors. 

I feel really dreadful saying this, but come on rya, there is a world out there - let's see the results of YOUR programme, not power built on Ben, Ian, Shirley, Nick and Joe et al who are products from before the lottery funding came in, but who have attracted the huge resources that you are able to build your platforms on. 

The British sailing squad has some of the best and nicest people to be found in world sailing.  Why oh why are the faceless powerpeople trying to corrupt the sport in this manner and reflect so badly on the British team?  I am sick of it.

Whilst in the mood to be politically incorrect (??) I wish to point out that athletes no longer run on shale tracks, that bikes going round the velodrome run on different tyres and use different surfaces than they di 10 or a hundred years ago, and that the wooden tennis racquet is no longer a winning tool.  The developing nations cannot play on a level pitch in anything - equipment is a small part of the budget for any campaign.

I am not comfortable with this outburst, but refuse to witness bullying.  To all those I have offended, I am sorry but I am expressing my opinion in one of the few forums that I am able to.
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pompeysailor View Drop Down
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Posts: 101 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pompeysailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 07 at 11:36am

"In the UK, the cats seem to make up something like 5% at national level.....okay, that may not be precise but it's in the ball park. Look at Y & Y's own National Championships Attendance Table, there's something like 370 cats out of 5000 boats - and that doesn't include rating yachts or boards."

HELLO!

Looking at the attendance table the 470 got the lowest turnout with 19 - discounting the Ynling and star which have no UK fleets, and honestly why do we have them??

tornado got 22 attendees at the nationals, 49er only had 26, while the finn had 41. i dont think anyone needs to know that laser was so far ahead, but i dont think anyone is saying drop that boat.

Should we drop the 470 as it has 2 boats in the olympics(men and women) and bring in another Multi instead??

Im not a multi sailor, but dropping the tornado would be terrible news for sailing.

BTW - what is the running cost for a star? must be about the same as a tornado??
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Jon Emmett View Drop Down
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Posts: 988 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 07 at 12:11pm
See page 15 of Y&Y (sorry my scanner is in Weymouth and I am not....) looks like the RYA are digging in!

Edited by Jon Emmett
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