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YouthSailing, the RYA and Catamarans
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mikeward View Drop Down
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Posts: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mikeward Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: YouthSailing, the RYA and Catamarans
    Posted: 24 Sep 07 at 9:38pm

Are we confident with our sport Cat sailing is really the Dogz ***! As an ex Int 14 Sailor I know that the bang for the buck equation is in our favour. Can we tell the RYA/ISAF to sod off and set up our own National/European/World body. Laser downwind force 6 brill - upwind pants - cats can do both!!
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Posts: 30 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyDoggie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 07 at 10:53pm

I think it is important this debate should be seen by cat sailors in other countries, especially european countries.

So, if you have ever attended and made friends at Carnac or Texel, then please let them know. I am sure they will support us, and may even lobby their own authorities.

PS Catmandoo: I entirely agree with your post on page 6.



Edited by SoggyDoggie
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 07 at 12:58am
[QUOTE=AdrianM]

Chris 249


If we take your argument as having some meaning for a minute would
you say that 4.5% of the sailing fraternity should therefore have zero class
attendance at the Olympics? 



No, I never said cats should get dropped from the Games, and I
don't think they should - I think the Finn has to go instead. 

However, lots of classes get no representation at the Games, at the
moment or under the RYA proposal. What about the traditional day
keelboats that the RYA proposal drops, which attract many more sailors
than cats (by my calcs, 888 sailors v 576 at the last nats)?

Where is the representation for the fast-
growing Sportsboat sector, which attracted about as many sailors as cats
at the recent nats? To be frank I've given up on SBs myself whereas I want
to get back into cats, so my preference is for cats for several reasons -
but it seems odd to scream that the RYA are picking on cats when an
equally large section of the sailing community is also being ignored.

Where is the representation for the racer/cruiser type yacht? Every
indicator I can ever find shows that those who sail them make up by far
the biggest section of sailors, and yet they have zero representation.
Okay, there are political and logistical problems with yachts - but
undeniable FACT is that many types of sailing are NOT represented at the
Games.

If the RYA and ISAF were a bunch of old fuddy duddies, why are they
chucking out the leadmines?

Surely this fact underlines that the line the RYA and ISAF tread, in trying
to fit an enormously diverse sport into 10 medals, is extremely difficult
and they may not deserve the childish personal abuse they are receiving
here. It's easy for me to say dump the Finn - I haven't got to tell that to
an IOC headed by a Finn sailor!

Of all the dinghy and yacht classes how many individual sailors competed
in more than one class? 


What's the relevance? Sure some mono sailors sail in more than one
class- but exactly the same applies to cat sailors. I competed in four cat
classes, season before last. Glenn Ashby does worlds in F18s, Tornadoes
and A Class, and he also sails Taipans at times.

On the other side - my old
Laser training partners did Lasers and offshore yachts. Other mates are
doing Laser and Tasar. Rivals are doing windsurfers and canting keel
yachts. Since this seems to apply to sailors of all types of craft, it's
probably not a significant factor in changing their relative popularity.


And exactly how many sailors attended the Yngling nationals - I
can't find a report on that one.

Very few.....which is why I'm not defending the Yngling's
spot. That's imposed on ISAF by the IOC and politics.


The RYA are selling us down the river qiute frankly but why? The cost
of the tornado campaign is obviously prohibitive (but no more so than the
afore-mentioned Yngling) and the confusion over the youth cat over
recent years can't have helped. 

There's been enormous confusion over the 420 and 29er too.....they
are both much more popular than the cats.

When we
look at the medals won by the youth cat squad with ever reducing
funding then surely it is a very successful part of the youth racing
programme. For me, both the youth training and Olympic Cat class
(whatever it should be) should be fully supported by our National body.

[/





To repeat - I don't think cats should be dropped from the
Olympics. Secondly, the point "we need all forms of sailing to be
represented in the Olympics" looks suspect, since many of the most
popular forms of sailing are NOT represented in the Olympics. If you are
saying that all forms of sailing should be represented in the Youth
Worlds, how can you protest the inclusion of a more popular form of
Youth sailing (skiff sailing) in favour of a less popular form?

My basic point is that allocating class positions fairly and equitably is not
as easy as it seems, and given that, the abuse of some people seems out
of order.


Edited by Chris 249
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 07 at 9:20am
Originally posted by Stuart O

Originally posted by Guest#260

I don't think the Olympics should try to be represenative of our sport ... I think it is the pinnacle of sailing and can't possible represent all activities that may occour under the banner of sailing ...

If it was representative then female participation would not be 35% for example ...

Then why bother with any of the Olympics at all? Across all sections of the olympics sports are represented by a  full cross section. We are not proposing all sections of sailing are represented, what we want like the other sports is a fair crosssection monohull, board and multihull. 

Sport is just sport and there are loads of different types & events.

Which broard base of sport is represented by hammer throwing? none, it's just a sport that happens to be in the Olympics.

The sailing classes should be those that provide a good level test and perhaps offer the media somthing .... because the Olympics is a big commercial event.
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Worthy View Drop Down
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Posts: 511 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Worthy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 07 at 9:52am
Originally posted by Chris 249

the abuse of some people seems out
of order.


Whoooaa, slow down a bit, we don't want to get into a flame war here, that is the last thing we need.

You must remember that the majority of the cat community feels abandoned by the RYA at the moment, and that is not just from these two submissions.

Back in 1997 the RYA set up the youth cat squad (I believe Sparky had something to do with it at this stage) where they bought 6 Hobie 16s and the 6 blue Dart 16s.  The Hobie 16s were chartered out for a couple of years and then offered for sale.  This enabled a number of people, including myself to get into cats.  (The support at this point was great).

Once the H16s had been sold Brian Phipps took over the youth squad and started up the Dragoon squad.  From what I could tell Brian was over the next few years in a constant struggle with the RYA for support.

I left the squad in 2001 and a couple of years later the youth development squad was set up.  However, this squad only existed for a couple of years before it was disbanded and all the sailors left high and dry.

The development squad was then in Tornado's only where the majority of youths just out of the H16 couldn't afford.  The RYA had made it almost impossible now to make the move accross from the H16 to the Tornado.

The above is just a brief summary of my experiences but I am sure many others have tales of abandonment.

The recent submission is in my mind just the icing on the cake showing the RYA's lack of support for catamarans as a whole.
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catmandoo View Drop Down
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Posts: 545 		Post Options Post Options   Quote catmandoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 07 at 10:30am
 
We can talk about this untill we are blue in the face , but this wont affect the RYA and its actions , we need to do something now before we run out of time to have any effect atall.
The American cat sailors had exactly the same problem when their organising body ANNOUNCED that they were submitting to remove cat sailing from the Olympics , our fellow cat sailors across the pond had the advantage in that their organisation made their intentions public and in time to do something about it .
 
USA cat sailors made the organising body change their submission to actually supporting future cat racing .
 
We need to learn from their experience and DO SOMETHING QUICKLY before its to late for us , time is not on our side due to the underhand fashion in which the RYA has gone about this .
 
I believe the US cat sailors started with 1 petition on line to which they could all agree to sign , with which they could show the level of dissaproval , not sure what else they did , but it worked .
 
With an online petition we can get all our fellow cat sailors and clubs to add their names to and will give us something to target our dissaproval with. For every cat sailor that writes in a forum there must be 100 that agree but wont speak out , but I bet they can be persuaded to sign a petition. Nor do they have to be specific cat sailors , just sailors with an interest in competition , sailing developement and overall fairness.
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Worthy View Drop Down
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Posts: 511 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Worthy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 07 at 10:34am
Originally posted by catmandoo

 
With an online petition we can get all our fellow cat sailors and clubs to add their names to and will give us something to target our dissaproval with. For every cat sailor that writes in a forum there must be 100 that agree but wont speak out , but I bet they can be persuaded to sign a petition. Nor do they have to be specific cat sailors , just sailors with an interest in competition , sailing developement and overall fairness.


Are you able to get this going?  I haven't much time.

I have however written to Y&Y to get publicity in the next issue and am now looking at other publications.
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Stuart O View Drop Down
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 07 at 12:00pm

They were also helped by the fact that 1 in 7 sailors sail cats. They went straight to the IOC/USOC with their petition on the grounds that their federeation was not being representative, this could have lead to the USSA being thrown out as  a body on the USOC.

We don't have those kind of numbers to aid us and as yet the facts on which the RYA have made their decision, and Mr Carr will stand behind, have not been published.

The RYA have completely underestimated the ground feeling on this issue. 

Their plan of timing has been well thought out. Knowing that it would take a couple of weeks to sort a petition out. WE MUST ACT NOW and get every cat sailor at our clubs to sign
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Jon Emmett View Drop Down
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Posts: 988 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 07 at 12:01pm
I do not understand why the RYA is not interested in CAT sailing. They have now invested a huge amount of money in the current Tornado teams. Prehaps remembering which the sailing life of a CAT sailor is much longer than most other Olympic sailors they feel they have made there investment for the foresable future and there is no need to commit more funds...
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Stuart O View Drop Down
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 07 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by Stuart O

Originally posted by Guest#260

I don't think the Olympics should try to be represenative of our sport ... I think it is the pinnacle of sailing and can't possible represent all activities that may occour under the banner of sailing ...

If it was representative then female participation would not be 35% for example ...

Then why bother with any of the Olympics at all? Across all sections of the olympics sports are represented by a  full cross section. We are not proposing all sections of sailing are represented, what we want like the other sports is a fair crosssection monohull, board and multihull. 

Sport is just sport and there are loads of different types & events.

Which broard base of sport is represented by hammer throwing? none, it's just a sport that happens to be in the Olympics.

The sailing classes should be those that provide a good level test and perhaps offer the media somthing .... because the Olympics is a big commercial event.

Sailing does offer the media something but as on an earlier post we are more internet based than outright television.

Couch potatoe (American) isn't interested so TV isn't.
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