Deffinition of a skiff..

Arrgghh worms, worms everywhere!!!

Me and my big mouth

I think this one has been done to death as well but for what it's worth (IMHO)...

No. (but to explain why not I would have to expand my definition of a catamaran and I prefer to keep things simple)

And neither is a Laser Funboat. (two oxymorons in one word!)

Originally posted by Chris 249 Stefan is right - THERE IS NO SIMPLE ANSWER!!!!! Anyone who comes up with one is wrong, a hypocrite, or just hasn't done their research! Errr, in my humble opinion, that is :-)

Or is a newcomer looking to simplify things in order to seek out an
answer to sailing perfection.

Skiff has in my mind always referred to a hull shape that "skims" the
water surface rather than displacing it, wether a rowing skiff or sailing,
the sound of the name in itself conjures up a fast moving craft barely
disturbing the water it passes over.

Then hulking great convicts go overloading it with sail area, building
massive racks to counter the load.

But it is funny when the racks snap just as dumb and dumberer are about
to cover you upwind....

Originally posted by Chew my RS 18ft isn't short.  Nor, with 3 crew, is it espicially light weight.  Chris 249 has some DLR figures to show this.

Stefan is right - THERE IS NO SIMPLE ANSWER!!!!!
Anyone who comes up with one is wrong, a hypocrite, or just hasn't done
their research! Errr, in my humble opinion, that is :-)

I finally found that battered chart the other day. The X axis is length to
sail area (using an average of upwind and downwind sail area of the
biggest rig). Big rig boats go to the top. The Y axis is the displacement
(rigged weight + normal crew) to righting moment. Boats with lots of RM
for their displacement are to the right.

If we read from top right corner (ie boats with lots of sail for their length
and lots of RM for their weight) the boats run in the following order;

Modern 18 Foot Skiff/ 12 Foot Skiff (/= almost equal)
1930s Historical Aussie 14
1930s Historical 18 Foot Skiff
1970s 12 Foot Skiff
Modern 16 Foot Skiff
then a gap to;
R Class/B14/49er;
Int 14/L 5000
1983 Int 14/RS800
1970s 16 Foot Skiff;
then a gap to;
1957 Aussie 14*/Aus Cherub/59er/Spencer Javelin/Trapez Senior 2-up**
L 4000
29er/505/Norfolk Punt/Assy Canoe/MPS/RS 600(?)/ RS 700 (?)/RS 400/
N12
Laser II / National 18/ 470 / Moth / Merlin / 1930s International 14
FD / Farr 3.7 / Blaze X / Int Canoe
Contender/Tasar
Ent
German Z Class
Laser
German Einhietzner (sp)

* the breakthrough light and small-rigged "Darkie" type

** how far ahead of its day was this boat - a production "skiff type" in the
'60s!

These numbers and ratios may be a bit dodgy, but the traditional Skiff
types are definitely out on their own, and even the old ones are out there
compared to their contemporaries among the dinghies. In some design
terms - not cultural terms or historical terms or anything else - this
seems to show the difference between Skiffs and skiff type boats and
others. Arguably, Skiffs are what they are because they have huge rigs
and lots of power.

One reason I like it is that it's not just a measure of speed or speed-for-
length, or coolness. Skiffs were not always quick for their length - the
German Z Class Renjollen type way at the end of the list was almost
certainly quicker than an 18 of its day.

Other tags, like saying Skiffs are light, or fast, or have free rules, or more
modern and advanced, or higher tech, haven't always been true. But it has
always been true to say that Skiffs had big rigs for their length, and lots
of righting moment for their weight (and possibly for their length).

These ratios clearly differentiate the "real" Skiffs from what could could
call the "skiff types", and it shows that they are in their turn different from
the "I wanna call my boat a skiff because it's cool, even if the designer
never called it a skiff" boats (hello NZ Javelin and Aussie Cherub!). The
boats we'd all call dinghies are separate again.

And before any great southern troll gets excited and starts making his
normal homoerotic threats, I'm not saying anything about what is a "real"
Skiff or not, nor am I saying this is anything but throwing numbers
around to see what they look like, and finding out that they are way out
on their own by these measures.

PS I haven't put in these Skiff classes;

http://www.cotuitskiff.org/

http://www.westray-orkney.co.uk/westray_skiffs/

http://www.woodwindyachts.com/sailboats/ackroyd.htm

http://www.scsvt.org/TEAMS/Sutton/student/AH/rproj/stlawrski ff/
saintlawrenceskiff.htm



Edited by Chris 249

Oh no, here we go again...

Ross, have a quick check through previous postings before posting anything really controversial!

Anyway, back to the RS500 discussion...