Deffinition of a skiff..
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3388
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 8:30am
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Topic: Deffinition of a skiff..
Posted By: Ross
Subject: Deffinition of a skiff..
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 3:39am
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I think I found the definitive definition. "The SKIFF - The Skiff is a distinctly Australian/New Zealand concept of stuffing huge amounts of sail area on a short lightweight dinghy hull and hanging on for a breath taking ride." Taken from the Fyfe sails website.  ------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Replies:
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 6:49am
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18ft isn't short. Nor, with 3 crew, is it espicially light weight. Chris 249 has some DLR figures to show this. ------------- http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 7:10am
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There isn't a "definitive definition" of skiff. The word has been used since at least the mid 19th century to describe a style of lightweight rowing boat. There are a number of "skiff clubs" for this type of rowing boat on the Thames, founded in the 19th century. It has also been used to describe working boats which ferried goods and people between the shore and anchored ships. The latter evolved into the racing skiffs of Sydney harbour in the late 19th century and some Australians will argue vehemently that the only correct use of the word in a sailing raceboat context is to describe those specific classes. However in the northern hemisphere at least, it's become used (or abused) as a marketing term for fast dinghies.
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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 7:51am
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Can of worms ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 8:36am
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Oh no, here we go again... Ross, have a quick check through previous postings before posting anything really controversial! Anyway, back to the RS500 discussion... ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 8:44am
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Try defining "sportsboat". Also guaranteed to get the Aussies worked up.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 8:47am
Stefan is right - THERE IS NO SIMPLE ANSWER!!!!! Anyone who comes up with one is wrong, a hypocrite, or just hasn't done their research! Errr, in my humble opinion, that is :-) I finally found that battered chart the other day. The X axis is length to sail area (using an average of upwind and downwind sail area of the biggest rig). Big rig boats go to the top. The Y axis is the displacement (rigged weight + normal crew) to righting moment. Boats with lots of RM for their displacement are to the right. If we read from top right corner (ie boats with lots of sail for their length and lots of RM for their weight) the boats run in the following order; Modern 18 Foot Skiff/ 12 Foot Skiff (/= almost equal) 1930s Historical Aussie 14 1930s Historical 18 Foot Skiff 1970s 12 Foot Skiff Modern 16 Foot Skiff then a gap to; R Class/B14/49er; Int 14/L 5000 1983 Int 14/RS800 1970s 16 Foot Skiff; then a gap to; 1957 Aussie 14*/Aus Cherub/59er/Spencer Javelin/Trapez Senior 2-up** L 4000 29er/505/Norfolk Punt/Assy Canoe/MPS/RS 600(?)/ RS 700 (?)/RS 400/ N12 Laser II / National 18/ 470 / Moth / Merlin / 1930s International 14 FD / Farr 3.7 / Blaze X / Int Canoe Contender/Tasar Ent German Z Class Laser German Einhietzner (sp) * the breakthrough light and small-rigged "Darkie" type ** how far ahead of its day was this boat - a production "skiff type" in the '60s! These numbers and ratios may be a bit dodgy, but the traditional Skiff types are definitely out on their own, and even the old ones are out there compared to their contemporaries among the dinghies. In some design terms - not cultural terms or historical terms or anything else - this seems to show the difference between Skiffs and skiff type boats and others. Arguably, Skiffs are what they are because they have huge rigs and lots of power. One reason I like it is that it's not just a measure of speed or speed-for- length, or coolness. Skiffs were not always quick for their length - the German Z Class Renjollen type way at the end of the list was almost certainly quicker than an 18 of its day. Other tags, like saying Skiffs are light, or fast, or have free rules, or more modern and advanced, or higher tech, haven't always been true. But it has always been true to say that Skiffs had big rigs for their length, and lots of righting moment for their weight (and possibly for their length). These ratios clearly differentiate the "real" Skiffs from what could could call the "skiff types", and it shows that they are in their turn different from the "I wanna call my boat a skiff because it's cool, even if the designer never called it a skiff" boats (hello NZ Javelin and Aussie Cherub!). The boats we'd all call dinghies are separate again. And before any great southern troll gets excited and starts making his normal homoerotic threats, I'm not saying anything about what is a "real" Skiff or not, nor am I saying this is anything but throwing numbers around to see what they look like, and finding out that they are way out on their own by these measures. PS I haven't put in these Skiff classes; http://www.cotuitskiff.org/ http://www.westray-orkney.co.uk/westray_skiffs/ http://www.woodwindyachts.com/sailboats/ackroyd.htm http://www.scsvt.org/TEAMS/Sutton/student/AH/rproj/stlawrski ff/ saintlawrenceskiff.htm |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 9:30am
| Drop it. It's been done to death. SNORE !!! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 9:56am
Or is a newcomer looking to simplify things in order to seek out an answer to sailing perfection. Skiff has in my mind always referred to a hull shape that "skims" the water surface rather than displacing it, wether a rowing skiff or sailing, the sound of the name in itself conjures up a fast moving craft barely disturbing the water it passes over. Then hulking great convicts go overloading it with sail area, building massive racks to counter the load. But it is funny when the racks snap just as dumb and dumberer are about to cover you upwind.... |
Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 10:25am
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I avoid all this crap by sailing a cat. Definition - a boat with two hulls. Nuff said. ------------- English Dave http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club (You'd think I'd be better at it by now) Hurricane 5.9 SX RS700 |
Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 11:15am
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Me and my big mouth I think this one has been done to death as well but for what it's worth (IMHO)... No. (but to explain why not I would have to expand my definition of a catamaran and I prefer to keep things simple) And neither is a Laser Funboat. (two oxymorons in one word!) ------------- English Dave http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club (You'd think I'd be better at it by now) Hurricane 5.9 SX RS700 |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 12:03pm
Ohh balls, what a have I done now. It wasn't meant as serious post, I just though it was quite funny .I'm going to have to start putting disclaimers at the bottom of my posts... ------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 2:23pm
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Arrgghh worms, worms everywhere!!!
------------- |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 8:06pm
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what isis said ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 1:18pm
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I knew the Contender was undercanvassed! ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 1:50pm
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Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 4:00pm
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Ignoring JimC for a moment while I think of a clever reply ... Here is a pic of an Islay Skiff from Selway Fisher Designs, a company that also markets a range of double-enders and the fanny launch. Phnar!
------------- English Dave http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club (You'd think I'd be better at it by now) Hurricane 5.9 SX RS700 |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 4:07pm
Definitely not! But it is quite a long way down Chris 249s list and as a lardy it would be helpful if it were a little higher ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 5:16pm
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Dear Chris Where does a UK Cherub fit into your chart? Main + Jib = 15.5sqm ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 5:31pm
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Blaze - defiantly a dinghy and proud of it ! .... a rose by any other name etc Blaze 720 |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 6:42pm
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 7:59pm
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R's don't have a max beam rule only Min @ 1.4m.
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 8:25pm
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Rigged weight 60Kg? I assume you're not talking about Strawberry there Stu, by back still hurts! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 8:28pm
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its times like these i turn to the almighty google for an answer.
definition of a skiff: any of various small boats propelled by oars or by sails or by a motor bummer |
Posted By: Chas 505
Date Posted: 16 Sep 07 at 6:09pm
------------- Life is too short. Work Hard; Play Hard; Sail a 505 |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 16 Sep 07 at 8:13pm
Has anyone got a bargepole I can borrow not to touch this thread with....
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 9:18am
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All we ever seem to talk about on this forum is "skiff" this and "Skiff" that, my Skiff is faster then your skiff Bla bla bloody bla, or how crp lasers and SMOD's are. Now i know i'm guilty of it probably more then most, but does it really matter, most people who talk about skiffs dont sail one themselves! Yeah Lasers are crap but so Crap they are brilliant. A skiff is an Ausie term i think, a 14 and a cherub would be described as a skiff, but in humble old Britain they are just another Dinghy ------------- |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 10:01am
| In My Humble Opinion "skiff" is defined bu the word. "Ski" as in sliding allong and "ff" as in f*** f***. If you sail a Javelin, py 926 and a Tasar 1023 you sure as hell know which one fits the definition, so it is not neccessarily speed. Was the Tasar the first Single Make One Design little bit Skiffy? Mind you Uffa Fox is credited with the first planing hulls in the 1930's. |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 10:16am
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I like that...
------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
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That's a definition I can sympathise with and makes me think that, despite earlier denegations, a Contender IS a skiff, at least mine: Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 12:02pm
Uffa seems to have been the first person to deliberately design a boat with the intention of making it plane, but quite a few boats could and did plane before that, especially in extreme conditions. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 12:11pm
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Only problem, Tick, is that could also include boats like a Canoe (Int or Cheseapeake Log Canoe), Punt, Renjolle, or 505 and they've got not a shred of skiff DNA in any way. I wouldn't say the Tasar was in the least bit skiffy. Having spoken to many of the designers and pioneers of the NS it was developed from, I can't think of a single shred of Skiff influence - however the NS has influenced Skiffs and the Tasar has influenced the later Bethwaite boats. There's some Tasar DNA in the Bethwaite 18s, but they don't feel like a Tasar to sail! The funny thing is that the skiffs and dinghies are quite different but equally good. Down here there's not such a rush to call boats "skiffs" because plenty of people don't want to be skiffies. Merlinboy and TT are dead right, denigrating boats 'cause they're not skiffs is ridiculous IMHO. BTW there were plenty of boats planing long before Uffa; the earliest clear description I can find is from 1891, when the Thomas Smith canoe "Snake" did a race averaging nine knots and had “the extraordinary power of rushing over the water at ten or twelve miles an hour, probably more, without any wave-making apparently; only a wide smooth wake is seen astern. Yet at five or six miles an hour she makes waves like any other boat” - a clear description of a planing hull. Another 1890s British canoeist wrote how water passing under a canoe’s fore sections “at high speed acts on them like a wedge, tending to lift the bows” - so he was actually much more accurate about the position of planing lift than later experts. Uffa knew about Smith's boats as he was an early Canoe sailor and he admitted he borrowed Smith's roller centreboard - something still used today in the Thistle, one of the most popular US dinghies. Uffa's hero Laurent Giles seems likely to be the person who wrote of "planing" in a dinghy in 1925, but by then there have been pics of boats clearly planing for years. Where Uffa had a breakthrough, it seems, was in getting a boat to plane regularly and on a reach, and then telling the world about it. |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 12:31pm
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At risk of repeating my self. Mr Fox achieved 16.3 knots in a canoe over a measured 1/2 mile in 1935. That looks like a break through to me. As to "telling the world" his books were the only ones in the library when I was a child. Not to mention that he was mates with the Royal Family and had lovely curly hair. My hero. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 12:43pm
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Is any of this published? Any chance of some pointers to it (or even being sent them if you have them electronically). I'm quite interested in the early days of the design and so are a few others in the class. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 2:02pm
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Skiff n. (slang) A marijuana cigarette with a lisp. ------------- English Dave http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club (You'd think I'd be better at it by now) Hurricane 5.9 SX RS700 |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 2:16pm
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Defn of a Skiff
A type of boat that no-one can really classify, It's probably fast in single hull terms, it probably has large righting moment, it probably planes and it probably has a Spi.
------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 2:26pm
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Chris 249. Not so much of the "Tick". It's Tickler to you, I don't approve of all this familiarity. Are you a colonial? ------------- tickel |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 3:17pm
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Tickler, tickel... crisis of identity there or have you found your long-lost password at last?
Maybe you're trying to do what BWD has only ever dared dreamimg about: take over the forum!
------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC
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Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 3:36pm
| Any problems I have with my identity,my dear BNS, are partially due to my lack of computer intelligence and partly due to having just returned from a dreadful Southport 24. I wish to day to be grumpy. I also have a cold and have slept in a car for two nights. No one gives me any respect. I did dance with a wild young girl on friday night (Southport) but she soon gave up as I can only dance (wildly) for 1 min. then sit down for 10, with oxygen. Mind you it did embarass the two of my children who were there so that is one good thing. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 3:55pm
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Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 4:27pm
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Ticko! bloody Ticko! Just watch it Jimco. I will get Isabelleoco on to you. One presumes that you are a wild colonial boy with your sliding seat and your "easy buttocks". The day gets worse.
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Posted By: MpHarris
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 6:04pm
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Why did you sleep in your car at Southport? I was relatively comfy in a tent like everyone else, ------------- Cherub 2663 "Sweet Dreams" RS400 451 "IceBerg" |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 6:35pm
| Because tents are all fappy and make me feel insecure. Were you the one swearing and being sick outside my old Astra on friday night? By the way the event was not miserable, that was fun as usual. We had insufficient team and had to retire at midnight, that was the main problem. Who did you sail for? |
Posted By: MpHarris
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 7:38pm
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Sadly no, i was well behaved (at least for the amount of beer i'd drunk) nasty cains rubbish. How come you had to retire? Were you one of the boats that lost the mast? Saw one go 25 mins from the end . . . gutted 23.5 hours sailing and no finish. I was sailing for Southport SC luckily wasn't in the boat for the last few hours was well entertaining watching the carnage from the side, and the amount of boats the binned it just before the line and drifted across was unbelievable. ------------- Cherub 2663 "Sweet Dreams" RS400 451 "IceBerg" |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 7:55pm
| We were Combs SC. We have completed this race since the beginning with one or two boats but this year circumstances combined to give us a team which was just too small. We started 33 and did hit 23 at one point but by midnight it was just not fun with our three crews having already sailed 5hrs. 5hrs. and 3 hrs. The forecast looked bad and so we retired. I was due to crew in the small hours but have a heavy cold/old age ect was relieved not to do it. I left at about 10am and the weather was looking a bit unsavory then, so it did blow up did it? |