Daemon v GT60

   So Dave, tell us, how much does it cost to have a World Champion crew these days?  
Only jesting mate.

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Strawberry Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 21 Jun 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1337	Post Options Post Reply Quote Strawberry Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Daemon v GT60 Posted: 06 Jun 07 at 10:33pm
	So Dave, tell us, how much does it cost to have a World Champion crew these days? Only jesting mate.
	Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry

m_liddell Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 27 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 583	Post Options Post Reply Quote m_liddell Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Jun 07 at 12:46pm
	Edited by m_liddell

Dave Chiz Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 13 Apr 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 27	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dave Chiz Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Jun 07 at 1:49pm
	Adam's an old mate so I was off the meter.

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 26 Jul 07 at 11:59am
	So, Cherub Nationals winding up. Decision on whether to race on the last day at lunchtime: the Moths have already packed up. From the on line reports Will and Lucy Lee walked it. Their boat is basically the Daemon shape, but with a Kiwi sourced Fyfe/C-tech rig which I personally think looks considerably better than the Daemon or GT60 rigs. Runner up looks like being an older boat to the same basic shape as the Daemon, but with flared topsides rather than tube wings, and also with a Kiwi rig. The B1 (=GT60) was the only boat to take a race off Will and Lucy, predictably a lighter weather one, put up a decent performance and could have been top 3 if they hadn't lost a day, apparently to a crew injury. The Aardvaak built Daemon prototype also did well, and got faster towards the end of the week, and could also have competed for top 3 if they hadn't lost two races. The Hartley built Daemon looks to have had a horrible series with OCS, DSQ and so on, so nothing to go on there. So on the whole not much to choose between the two designs, but Kiwi rigs look good. I could be biased on that front though, as I was the first to import one into the UK.

mastobeam Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 27 Jul 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 8	Post Options Post Reply Quote mastobeam Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 2:35pm
	Interesting summary Jim. We are thinking of buying a cherub for next season. Due to time constraints and a basic lack of desire to bimble we want a ready to go competitve boat (let our complete lack of skill be the reason for sh**e results). We are going to test sail both the GT (B1C) and Daemon at some stage though there are complleing financial considerations to buy the Daemon. My question is - are there speed, construction or other advantages that make it worth paying the extra lolly for the B1C from carbonology? Your summary seems to suggest not.

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 3:09pm
	A carbon boat will have a significantly longer competitive life and this ought to at the very least affect resale values. I'd hope to get back much of the extra I paid. My guess would be that the B1 will be a bit easier to sail and faster in light conditions, and the Daemon faster in a breeze, but in your first season it will probably make very little difference. Hopefully Will or Lucy will pop up on the forum when they've got their breath back and found a home on the mantlepiece for the silverware and give you the latest picture.

Dave Chiz Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 13 Apr 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 27	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dave Chiz Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 3:16pm
	Jim I am sorry but you are a way off with your summary. We lapped the daemon in more than half of the races and they never beat us in a race. I'm glad you like W&L's rig more than ours - shame the sailmaking world doesn't agree with you. Compare the areas mate - without the flat top you can't get 15.5 onto the spar!!! Will and Lucy's boat is a custom built Slug - not a daemon - maybe under the chines it's similar but nowhere else! We lead at the windward mark more times than anyone else. We overtook the slug upwind in all conditions from 10kts up to 15-18 and were competitive on pace downwind when we sailed in the same breeze/patch of water in ANY conditions! We capsized too much as we had sailed together for 2 hours before the regatta, whereas the (very worthy) winners have sailed together a lot more than that. I admit that in the light the boat is very fast because it is better at tacking/gybing and doesn't try and drag a planing platform through the water when it is displacement mode - but that is something that we wanted to avoid - but as Lucy herself said, it's not slow in breeze- not by a very long way. We were right with them lap after lap as long as we didn't drop it - which sadly we did far too much. Andy bust his foot on Sunday and we couldnt sail any more. mastobeam - don't believe stories from someone who is reading too much into a set of results without being on the water where the action is - if you are deciding between a Daemon and a B1 then compare the race by race results of those boats - not the one off custom made jobs! Dave Edited by Dave Chiz

stuarthop Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 22 Dec 04 Location: Nottingham Online Status: Offline Posts: 1040	Post Options Post Reply Quote stuarthop Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 4:09pm
	Dave that is where you are wrong i'm sorry, i was sailing subtle knife, the carbon version of the daemon and i'm sure you didnt lap me at all


guytoon Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Groupie Joined: 16 Feb 05 Location: France Online Status: Offline Posts: 82	Post Options Post Reply Quote guytoon Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 5:07pm
	The truth might be between both and we must consider the inner level of all crews. Actually the GT60 seems really fast but might be trickier to sail. The daemon is also fast and is certainly easier all round. The C-tech/Daemon Hyde sails rig as proven to be especially fast upwind. I think the idea of trying both is a good one. Anywat the good choice is to choose a Cherub whatever it is a Daemon or a GT60. Edited by guytoon
	Cherub 2692 "NBS"

Alex C Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 18 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 108	Post Options Post Reply Quote Alex C Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 6:59pm
	I'd better chip in to give a fair account. None of the crews in either boat had done much or any sailing at all together prior to the event. In the Hartley Daemon there were still shall we say teething problems and as the results show it only completed TWO races against the GT60. Where in the first one the splice holding the mainsheet block slipped meaning a capsize and repair, and the second can be blamed squarely on myself. So I don't think any conclusive judgements can be made just yet. From my personal experience I found the Hartley Daemon to be surprisingly fast downwind, and of the few legs we did complete we overtook boats (including 2005 rules ones) everytime. Upwind in light conditions I struggled to get the T-foil to work which was down to inexperience (and maybe a high overall crew weight) and I think it probably ended up having a negative effect hence the total lack of speed. When the breeze was up it was easy to use and the boat was certainly quick. And on a side note the sailing that I did manage to do was a lot of fun, and has got me motivated to dedicate more time to the sport again which can't be a bad thing.