Daemon v GT60
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2968
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 3:48am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Daemon v GT60
Posted By: Chris 249
Subject: Daemon v GT60
Date Posted: 15 May 07 at 11:51pm
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What was the spin from the Womens' Skiff Selection trials, about the relative
performance of the GT60 and the Daemon? Any reliable info? |
Replies:
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 16 May 07 at 1:14pm
You are a brave for starting this thread given the huge involement by the cherub commitee in the Daemon 
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Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 16 May 07 at 1:23pm
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Just wait till the end of July and see how they get on at the Nationals. Racing is the only proper way of testing them. ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 16 May 07 at 1:38pm
That's not a very fair test at all! The GT60 will have Dave and Andy in it (very good sailors), the Daemon will have ME in it! 
------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 May 07 at 2:22pm
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However Atum Bom is not so very different to the Daemon. I'm sure Proctor(?)/Hyde aren't about to claim that the rig they've designed for the Daemon is inferior to the Lee's C-Tech/Fyfe rig.
But actually I agree, racing isn't that great a test. How do you know whether X won because of their boat speed or in spite of their lack of it. 10% speed difference between crews is normal, 10% difference boatspeed would be amazing. After the second set of trials comparison of race results between the two boats with crews swapping over would be very interesting. My lightly informed guess would have the Bieker shape better in the light and more survivable in extreme conditions, and the Roberts shape faster in moderate, and faster but a tad more difficult to handle at the top ends of the wind range. But who knows? |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 16 May 07 at 6:27pm
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is the rig still in one piece after it fell the other day at weston. i wish we could have set up a drag race on sat between the new and old cherubs and 14s. would havew been interesting especially with the quality( or lack in my case) of sailors there ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 16 May 07 at 10:01pm
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Suprisingly yes, the rig is intact. I was at the helm when it came down. Its quite a sight seeing tim noyce flying. It was not a pleasant experience with the rig, but the Daemons are certainly very quick, and definitely a great blast
------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 16 May 07 at 11:06pm
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What broke?
Not the U-bolt that supports the shrouds AND the lowers by any chance? ------------- " rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk Andy P foiling Int Moth GBR3467 Freedom 21 Codling |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 17 May 07 at 5:42am
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No, the shroud wire pulled out of the crimp at the fitting where it attacthes to the bolt plate. When the mast flexed away, it snapped the pin holding the lowers in then the mast came down. ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 17 May 07 at 7:44am
I think you'll find that they actually go to different points now Andy on the sound advice of someone at the Dinghy show... can't think who that was now... ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 21 May 07 at 8:31pm
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Was that you Tim in the Daemon at CSC on Saturday? As I tried to call across the water "beautiful boat, shame about the weather". Looks like 30knots was a bit much for it. 30knts was certainly too much for the V3000s; though sadly, not too much for the heavy, old, undercanvassed laser 3000s with their furling jibs and reefable mains, one of which hit 18.5knts! Maybe the Daemon needs an "S" rig like the Vago Seriously ... cool boat tho. If you bring it again, can I have a ride please? ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 22 May 07 at 9:48am
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It was indeed me at Carsington. Think that the 30knots was more of a problem to the sailors in it than the boat itself! Good fun though. We only managed 17 knots with the kite up as it was so balistic that we were having issues maxing it out, too worried about staying attached to the boat in those gusts! We'd managed 16.8 before we even hoisted though which was quite amusing! I'm only down in Derby so will more than likely be up again so will let you know. Can't justify the joining fee at the moment as I travel most weekends so won't be there much. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 22 May 07 at 10:37pm
Not really; a V3k won the second race that day, and was leading the third till it lost its crew at the last mark 50m from the finish ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
(hardly the boat's fault). Agreed, it would have been easier sailing an L3k...Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 31 May 07 at 9:58pm
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... and didn't that V3k sailor whinge about it being his new boat's fault I reckon the wind had dropped a little by race 2... and of course I would have won the race myself if we hadn't been upside down attempting to reattach the clew outhaul when the starting gun went off! nuff said - 'tis a cherub thread not another 3000 one.
------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: Dave Chiz
Date Posted: 05 Jun 07 at 4:34pm
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Well it appears we don't have to wait til July... The daemon and Atum both went head to head with the GT60 (or B1c as it is now) Cherub 2698 on saturday. Light air (definitely not in our favourite part of the design envelope for 140kg in the bus, but no excuses...) We kind of messed up any viable comparison on race 1 because we misunderstood the sailing instructions and started another lap... when Atum carried on past the leeward mark toward the finish we spun her around and hoisted, but couldn't retake the lead... Race 4 we couldn't sail as Adam had work to do and I couldn't be bothered. Results from races 2 and 3 at weymouth on saturday were fair fights though.... click on the panel top right to select the race you want to see... http://www.halsraceresults.com/crs/crs.aspx?DSKey=272&ClassKey=-1138147199&SeriesKey=-929654070 - http://www.halsraceresults.com/crs/crs.aspx?DSKey=272&Cl assKey=-1138147199&SeriesKey=-929654070 enjoy! |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 06 Jun 07 at 9:15am
cor, you were a pair of fly weights at only 140kg Dave  Think me and hopson were packing over 160!Your boat speed is very impressive though, there is no denying that! ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: Dave Chiz
Date Posted: 06 Jun 07 at 11:11am
| Mate you need to sort that out! 160kg is good for 14ing with 18.5sqm upwind and 50sqm down, but 12ft waterline length is going to struggle. I think 140 is heavy for a cherub so I'm running to work and home now to keep the lard down - I have an excuse though. I was 40 in April!! |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 06 Jun 07 at 11:41am
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Only 160?? Pah!! I'm sure me and Mr Roberts can do better than that!!! ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 06 Jun 07 at 12:34pm
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My lack of performance on the water is made up for in the bar afterwards though. You can't win them all eh?! ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 06 Jun 07 at 10:26pm
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Noycey it was yet again an exceptional night out on the ale ------------- |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 06 Jun 07 at 10:33pm
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So Dave, tell us, how much does it cost to have a World Champion crew these days? Only jesting mate. ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 07 Jun 07 at 12:46pm
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Posted By: Dave Chiz
Date Posted: 07 Jun 07 at 1:49pm
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Adam's an old mate so I was off the meter.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Jul 07 at 11:59am
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So, Cherub Nationals winding up. Decision on whether to race on the last day at lunchtime: the Moths have already packed up.
From the on line reports Will and Lucy Lee walked it. Their boat is basically the Daemon shape, but with a Kiwi sourced Fyfe/C-tech rig which I personally think looks considerably better than the Daemon or GT60 rigs. Runner up looks like being an older boat to the same basic shape as the Daemon, but with flared topsides rather than tube wings, and also with a Kiwi rig. The B1 (=GT60) was the only boat to take a race off Will and Lucy, predictably a lighter weather one, put up a decent performance and could have been top 3 if they hadn't lost a day, apparently to a crew injury. The Aardvaak built Daemon prototype also did well, and got faster towards the end of the week, and could also have competed for top 3 if they hadn't lost two races. The Hartley built Daemon looks to have had a horrible series with OCS, DSQ and so on, so nothing to go on there. So on the whole not much to choose between the two designs, but Kiwi rigs look good. I could be biased on that front though, as I was the first to import one into the UK. |
Posted By: mastobeam
Date Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 2:35pm
| Interesting summary Jim. We are thinking of buying a cherub for next season. Due to time constraints and a basic lack of desire to bimble we want a ready to go competitve boat (let our complete lack of skill be the reason for sh**e results). We are going to test sail both the GT (B1C) and Daemon at some stage though there are complleing financial considerations to buy the Daemon. My question is - are there speed, construction or other advantages that make it worth paying the extra lolly for the B1C from carbonology? Your summary seems to suggest not. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 3:09pm
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A carbon boat will have a significantly longer competitive life and this ought to at the very least affect resale values. I'd hope to get back much of the extra I paid.
My *guess* would be that the B1 will be a bit easier to sail and faster in light conditions, and the Daemon faster in a breeze, but in your first season it will probably make very little difference. Hopefully Will or Lucy will pop up on the forum when they've got their breath back and found a home on the mantlepiece for the silverware and give you the latest picture. |
Posted By: Dave Chiz
Date Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 3:16pm
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Jim I am sorry but you are a way off with your summary. We lapped the daemon in more than half of the races and they never beat us in a race. I'm glad you like W&L's rig more than ours - shame the sailmaking world doesn't agree with you. Compare the areas mate - without the flat top you can't get 15.5 onto the spar!!! Will and Lucy's boat is a custom built Slug - not a daemon - maybe under the chines it's similar but nowhere else! We lead at the windward mark more times than anyone else. We overtook the slug upwind in all conditions from 10kts up to 15-18 and were competitive on pace downwind when we sailed in the same breeze/patch of water in ANY conditions! We capsized too much as we had sailed together for 2 hours before the regatta, whereas the (very worthy) winners have sailed together a lot more than that. I admit that in the light the boat is very fast because it is better at tacking/gybing and doesn't try and drag a planing platform through the water when it is displacement mode - but that is something that we wanted to avoid - but as Lucy herself said, it's not slow in breeze- not by a very long way. We were right with them lap after lap as long as we didn't drop it - which sadly we did far too much. Andy bust his foot on Sunday and we couldnt sail any more. mastobeam - don't believe stories from someone who is reading too much into a set of results without being on the water where the action is - if you are deciding between a Daemon and a B1 then compare the race by race results of those boats - not the one off custom made jobs! Dave
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Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 4:09pm
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Dave that is where you are wrong i'm sorry, i was sailing subtle knife, the carbon version of the daemon and i'm sure you didnt lap me at all ------------- |
Posted By: guytoon
Date Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 5:07pm
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The truth might be between both and we must consider the inner level of all crews. Actually the GT60 seems really fast but might be trickier to sail. The daemon is also fast and is certainly easier all round. The C-tech/Daemon Hyde sails rig as proven to be especially fast upwind. I think the idea of trying both is a good one. Anywat the good choice is to choose a Cherub whatever it is a Daemon or a GT60. ------------- Cherub 2692 "NBS" |
Posted By: Alex C
Date Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 6:59pm
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I'd better chip in to give a fair account. None of the crews in either boat had done much or any sailing at all together prior to the event. In the Hartley Daemon there were still shall we say teething problems and as the results show it only completed TWO races against the GT60. Where in the first one the splice holding the mainsheet block slipped meaning a capsize and repair, and the second can be blamed squarely on myself. So I don't think any conclusive judgements can be made just yet. From my personal experience I found the Hartley Daemon to be surprisingly fast downwind, and of the few legs we did complete we overtook boats (including 2005 rules ones) everytime. Upwind in light conditions I struggled to get the T-foil to work which was down to inexperience (and maybe a high overall crew weight) and I think it probably ended up having a negative effect hence the total lack of speed. When the breeze was up it was easy to use and the boat was certainly quick. And on a side note the sailing that I did manage to do was a lot of fun, and has got me motivated to dedicate more time to the sport again which can't be a bad thing. ------------- |
Posted By: landlocked
Date Posted: 27 Jul 07 at 8:27pm
Never before has more truth been spoken my continental friend who care's whhich one as long as its a Cheurb *edit Maybe i should have posted this in the drunken rant thingymabob ------------- Cherub 2535 "Eggbert the Nasty" Soon to be for sale PM for Details Cherub 2657 "Slippery When Wet" Don't sail fly Cherub |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 28 Jul 07 at 10:02pm
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Yea i did think the hartly daemon looked like it had too much weight in it (no offence) although from what i actually saw from the racing it looked fast and definatly fun :) this post is from smight at bbsc on his bro's pc btw ------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 30 Jul 07 at 8:46am
Is a fella not allowed to enjoy his beer and curry any more or what?! Great week though... got a tan, made some new friends, enjoyed Weymouths night life, didn't win anything but had a great time sailing 12 foot boats. |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 30 Jul 07 at 11:25am
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Not strictly true is it now Tim? ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 30 Jul 07 at 2:23pm
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OK... I may have won a few things... The Ashes, The Digereedon't AND Pub Golf. Wow, looking at it that way I was actually the most successful person all week! and there was me talking down my achievements! |