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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Phantom / Vareo
    Posted: 09 Oct 12 at 10:48am
Potentially grp are a lot slower. Some were up to 14 kilos overweight. Still very good value for club racing and having a Damn good sail, just wouldn't cut it at national level.

Early epoxies are still very quick if in good condition but I don't think you'll find one of those below 3.5k at the mo. Epoxy phantoms only started at sail number 1100 so if you see anyone claiming an earlier number than that is epoxy then they have made a mistake.

Don't dismiss a grp one though if you only want it for py racing its still a lot of boat for the money. At our club we race epoxies off of a different py than wooden or grp phantoms to even it up a bit.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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MattHarris View Drop Down
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MattHarris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 12 at 10:07am
Thanks for the offer, for the time being my budget has dropped from 4k to 1-2k.  Based on this i'm not going to be able to get a newer Phantom so i'm back to square one in some ways. 
I've notived a few older GRP/Epoxy Phantoms, whats the speed difference between theseand the newer boats?  Equally in this price range the Supernova looks an interesting bet although I'm not 100% sure on teh weight carrying for 15 stone... 
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bferry View Drop Down
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Posts: 190 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bferry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 12 at 7:16am
Originally posted by Kev M

The mainsheet block on the floor seems a long way back and the toe straps don't seem to come forward enough to give you any chance of getting your weight forward to lift the arse of the boat out of the water when going upwind.  Having said that I looked at a Phantom the next day and it too seemed to have everything very central/rear biased.
 
 
Regarding the toe straps, many Vareo owners upgrade the standard ones with full length rooster (LDC also have similar ones now)  The full lenght ones allow you to move further forward in the boat thus enabling you to lift up the stern in low wind conditions.  However, having said that, you don't really need to hike in those sort of conditions.
 
Originally posted by Kev M

I didn't like the sail shape but that was most likely due to the fact that as soon as you applied any cunningham the sail dropped four inches and it's one of those delightful systems where the main halyard is cleated at the top of the mast so you have no chance of fixing it on the water.

 
 
The sail shape is very dynamic and with a composite mast tip the cunningham and kicker settings (and the outhaul) enable you to get a very flat sail shape.  The mast's flexibility means that the cunningham is visually very obvious.
 
 
Originally posted by Kev M

The steering is really heavy.  I had the boat flat going upwind and any change in direction felt like I was trying to fight a bad case of weather helm.  
 
The trick to having light steering is to control the boats direction with the sails more than the tiller.  This keeps the speed going and reduces the pressure on the rudder foil.
 
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crosby mafia View Drop Down
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Posts: 62 		Post Options Post Options   Quote crosby mafia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 12 at 8:46pm
 Matt, offer is still open to try a phantom at Crosby, just had our Phantom open. Won by Ed T.  Our Frostbite starts in a few weeks through to April. Ed probably coming to play also. Could be a decent fleet of phantoms.  
Better a crap day in Abersoch than any day at work.
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Rockhopper View Drop Down
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Posts: 642 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rockhopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 12 at 7:55pm
I used to sit next too the kite blocks going upwind in the vareo that was far enough to get the arse out i found if i sat and further forward i could not adjust anything with ease but that was once you were hiking i still love the vareo found it a great boat to sail and fun thing all round i cant comment on the phantom but i am looking for a cheap one to sail this winter as they seem a demon on lakes .I sailed my vareo on the open sea and we only had w/l courses which suited it down to the ground
Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest.
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Posts: 1760 		Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 12 at 5:48pm
Kev,
Regards the phantom set up, yes it's central but then that's where you need the main sheet blocks and is the best place to be sitting when going upwind. Some people are doing away with the aft toes trap so it means that it doesn't look too aft biased however when sailing on the sea in big waves that rear strap really comes in useful. If you need to get forward in lighter airs then you don't need to have straps so it's not a problem. If you want to change the way you set up the main sheet you can do too, I have seen phantoms set up laser style with the main sheet moved forwards at the front block. As its not a some this can be done, whereas it can't with a Vareo.

I would agree that the extra sail gives you something else to do off wind and if that's what interests you then it's probably the best way forward. I personally think I'd rather have the boat with better performance, better class racing and is still fun offwind due to the size of the sail. 
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Kev M View Drop Down
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Posts: 346 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 12 at 5:38pm

I've yet to have a go in the Phantom but this weekend I managed to scrounge a go in a Vareo albeit there wasn't enough wind to make a proper decision on whether to buy one or not.  I do have a few thoughts on them though.

The mainsheet block on the floor seems a long way back and the toe straps don't seem to come forward enough to give you any chance of getting your weight forward to lift the arse of the boat out of the water when going upwind.  Having said that I looked at a Phantom the next day and it too seemed to have everything very central/rear biased.

With the kite up it held a reach tighter than I thought it would and even in moderate wind it certainly made the reach more exciting than sailing my Blaze in the same conditions.  Downwind was hardly a blast but certainly more interesting than sailing the Blaze.

I didn't like the sail shape but that was most likely due to the fact that as soon as you applied any cunningham the sail dropped four inches and it's one of those delightful systems where the main halyard is cleated at the top of the mast so you have no chance of fixing it on the water.

The steering is really heavy.  I had the boat flat going upwind and any change in direction felt like I was trying to fight a bad case of weather helm.  

There's no denying the Phantom is faster, the PY tells you that, but part of me thinks I'd rather be occupied by two sails than bored by one.  What I really need to do is try it again in more wind and then try a Phantom.
Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.
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rb_stretch View Drop Down
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Posts: 742 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 8:26pm
At our place (122 acres) the Phantom seems quite a bit faster round the course on all points of sail. That spinnaker on the Vareo just doesn't have a chance to show it's benefits on restricted water (and I do wonder if at all, compared to the Phantom).
So Phantom faster and more enjoyable on all points of sail....
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crosby mafia View Drop Down
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Posts: 62 		Post Options Post Options   Quote crosby mafia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 7:18pm
 You definately need a phantom,  we've got 6 at Crosby at the moment, 3 epoxy and 3 wooden.  Looks like it could be a good winter series at Crosby,  salt water doesn't freeze as easily as inland lakes !!
 I've sailed against a vareo for the last few weeks at Abersoch,  yes they move off wind but the wind gets up and the phantom planes away. Its not as good upwind as the phantom either. 
I had a few of the beach boys trying my phantom against the vareo for next years toy,  I think there could be 3 or 4 phantoms at SCYC next year. 
Always welcome to come and try at Crosby SC, as you are so close.
Better a crap day in Abersoch than any day at work.
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Rockhopper View Drop Down
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Posts: 642 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rockhopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 5:23pm
I always used to love long upwind legs  in the vareo as i would always turn round and wave at my mates further back Tongue
Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest.
2004 national champ Laser5000
2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo
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