Phantom / Vareo
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9769
Printed Date: 10 Sep 25 at 11:00pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Phantom / Vareo
Posted By: MattHarris
Subject: Phantom / Vareo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 1:59pm
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I'm looking for a boat for a slightly portly chap (15st) to sail on a restricted piece of water. Having looked through and stuff I think I'm down to the Vareo or Phantom. The Phantom will be better for sailing round the cans and theres a good north west circuit to play on, price wise its about £4k for a reasonable one. The Vareo is however slightly cheaper (£3k) but won't do as well on restricted water, benefit being it gives me something to do offwind and to have a bit of fun when not racing.I was leaning heavily towards the Phantom but went to Bassenthwaite over the weekend and saw the vareos playing in a bit of wind and this made me think twice. Just wondering whether anyone else has a tupence they'd like to throw in? ------------- Phantom 1175 - Alice http://www.thelostpenguin.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.thelostpenguin.co.uk |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 3:01pm
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The Vareos get walloped by the Phantoms every race at our club. This could be to do with sailing standards, though. Loved sailing the Vareo at Minorca Sailing, but then there is lots of space to bear away into in the gusts. At 15 stone, this will be less of a problem, as you'll be able to hold it in higher winds. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 3:11pm
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Having sailed both several times. The Phantom is the obvious choice. Depends what you want out of racing and if you are bothered about the kite. ------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 3:14pm
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Hi
a chap at our club a bit lighter than me so similar weight to you sold his Phantom to buy a vareo and finds it is so slow and wont point upwind compared to the Phantom that he very rarely can compete and that is on the Solent. I know the original spinnaker was designed for windward leeward racing and suffers on general club courses, but they have since made a flatter version. Last year we at Lee had an official RS VAREO event and 4 boats turned up, against 13 phantoms. If you want to race and do opens Phantom, blast about for fun RS vareo a great boat. Biased but my opinion is of course correct! Good luck whatever you choose. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 3:20pm
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Phantom...easy! ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: skslr
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 3:38pm
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No experience on a Phantom, but for just having fun the Vareo is great, even on restricted water. It might not accelerate to 20 knots, it even might be not faster around a course than a Laser depending on conditions. Which actually helps with restricted waters... But when it planes with the kite up hiking out and being so close to the water gives you a really fun sensation compared to heeling conventional singlehanders to windward while slowly going downwind. I also like the cockpit layout, but that is again rather in comparison to a Laser... |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 4:04pm
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Owned both- given your restricted water note, go for the Phantom.
Another measure... How many of each at the club? Go for the bigger number.... Fleet racing, even a mini fleet inside a PY race will be better than sodding around against a spreadsheet and a some bloke with a stopwatch. |
Posted By: Moppo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 4:16pm
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Respect the Vareo...
I'd go for the Phantom: Vareo always seems like a compromise, and whilst I have been utterly whipped by one on the water (being sailed properly) I just don't think it's as good a boat as the Phantom. ------------- B14 694 |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 5:02pm
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If we can't persuade you to look towards a Blaze (with or without Halo rig) .. well the only worthwhile option on your list has simply got to be the Phantom ! No comparison really and no need to list the pro's and con's - don't need too ... just try the options and see what you think yourself. Mike L. |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 5:37pm
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Another vote for the Phantom, 15st ideal weight for a restricted water, great fun boat that will give you plenty to do offwind if you want to get the best from it, as you say great circuit and if looked after the boat will hold its value well.
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Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 6:18pm
Obviously I would say Finn but given your budget and other circumstances go for the Phantom without hesitation. It will hold it's value better than the Vareo and also, surprisingly, give you more pleasure  ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 6:54pm
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What a shame they don't fit a spinnaker on a Blaze then you could have the best of both worlds, oh did several hundred people suggest that already and the dozy builders ignored us?
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 7:33pm
So boring  ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 7:50pm
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I used to sail a vareo great fun seemed to be ok on handicap at certain times must be better now at 1045 hard work upwind i agree on that one but once you know how to do it was fine. But i have to say phantom looks a better choice i am just under 100 kg and i now have a 300 much more fun than either on the open sea if you are lake sailing go for the phantom looks a lovely boat ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 8:01pm
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.... rising to the 'fly' possibly ... 'Us dozy builders' offered Greame a cheap Blaze hull and a lot of bits so he could make (destruct ?) his own 'Franken-Blaze' a while back but that offer was spurned and predictably what we actually got after the over long gestation period was the 'V2' .. .. 'the love child of a pedalo and a fishing smack' as some described it. We'll turn the other cheek now - Greame if you can overcome the 'pride' issue that offer is still genuinly open and some of the salvagable fittings might even be useful. (We'll lend you the lighter for what remains to burn with all those old Ents and Solos you admire in November) Back on track - if your local water is as we think then 'keep it simple' is the advice... go with the Phantom on this occasion. (or like GRF even grab an EPS  ... why not even visit the Forumites meeting at Broxbourne for more madhouse 'useful advice' !) Mike L.  |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 8:49pm
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Matt,
Are you still sailing at Southport? If so then a Phantom is a clear winner, as you'll be able to sail against Ed Thomas and have someone to gauge your performance against. |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 29 Aug 12 at 9:09pm
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RS 100 great RTC and then in the winter come to L&L for W/L series.
Lots of Phantoms at L&L Alex ------------- |
Posted By: MattHarris
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 9:04am
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Yeah still at Southport although Ed is currrently at Pilks, there are a few Phantoms knocking around and I think others may be tempted if a few more boats appear. I've had a go in both and enjoyed sailing them, but i think the Phantom is probably still the way I'm leaning. With regards to the alternatives, I've not seen any local blazes how well do they go on restricted waters? Theres a pair of EPS' at Southport but i'd prefer to go with a more active class and although the 100's look really good at 6k they're outside my budget, the same with the Finn really. ------------- Phantom 1175 - Alice http://www.thelostpenguin.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.thelostpenguin.co.uk |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 9:26am
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Nope and up wind.... nearly got it going as fast as a 400 :p
Go for Phantom, there's a very early epoxy one for sale at L&L (1101) but if you've got it enough money look for a 1200 + Alex ------------- |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 10:07am
OMG  So I was right then the 100 is a bandit ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 10:17am
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In the right hands ;) lol ------------- |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 4:36pm
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Bloody hell you will be on for the next 100 nationals win then Alex! ------------- |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 4:49pm
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Nah there are few quicker than me ;) ------------- |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 5:23pm
I always used to love long upwind legs in the vareo as i would always turn round and wave at my mates further back  ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: crosby mafia
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 7:18pm
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You definately need a phantom, we've got 6 at Crosby at the moment, 3 epoxy and 3 wooden. Looks like it could be a good winter series at Crosby, salt water doesn't freeze as easily as inland lakes !! I've sailed against a vareo for the last few weeks at Abersoch, yes they move off wind but the wind gets up and the phantom planes away. Its not as good upwind as the phantom either. I had a few of the beach boys trying my phantom against the vareo for next years toy, I think there could be 3 or 4 phantoms at SCYC next year. Always welcome to come and try at Crosby SC, as you are so close. ------------- Better a crap day in Abersoch than any day at work. |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 30 Aug 12 at 8:26pm
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At our place (122 acres) the Phantom seems quite a bit faster round the course on all points of sail. That spinnaker on the Vareo just doesn't have a chance to show it's benefits on restricted water (and I do wonder if at all, compared to the Phantom). So Phantom faster and more enjoyable on all points of sail....
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Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 08 Oct 12 at 5:38pm
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I've yet to have a go in the Phantom but this weekend I managed to scrounge a go in a Vareo albeit there wasn't enough wind to make a proper decision on whether to buy one or not. I do have a few thoughts on them though. The mainsheet block on the floor seems a long way back and the toe straps don't seem to come forward enough to give you any chance of getting your weight forward to lift the arse of the boat out of the water when going upwind. Having said that I looked at a Phantom the next day and it too seemed to have everything very central/rear biased. With the kite up it held a reach tighter than I thought it would and even in moderate wind it certainly made the reach more exciting than sailing my Blaze in the same conditions. Downwind was hardly a blast but certainly more interesting than sailing the Blaze. I didn't like the sail shape but that was most likely due to the fact that as soon as you applied any cunningham the sail dropped four inches and it's one of those delightful systems where the main halyard is cleated at the top of the mast so you have no chance of fixing it on the water. The steering is really heavy. I had the boat flat going upwind and any change in direction felt like I was trying to fight a bad case of weather helm. There's no denying the Phantom is faster, the PY tells you that, but part of me thinks I'd rather be occupied by two sails than bored by one. What I really need to do is try it again in more wind and then try a Phantom. ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 08 Oct 12 at 5:48pm
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Kev, Regards the phantom set up, yes it's central but then that's where you need the main sheet blocks and is the best place to be sitting when going upwind. Some people are doing away with the aft toes trap so it means that it doesn't look too aft biased however when sailing on the sea in big waves that rear strap really comes in useful. If you need to get forward in lighter airs then you don't need to have straps so it's not a problem. If you want to change the way you set up the main sheet you can do too, I have seen phantoms set up laser style with the main sheet moved forwards at the front block. As its not a some this can be done, whereas it can't with a Vareo. I would agree that the extra sail gives you something else to do off wind and if that's what interests you then it's probably the best way forward. I personally think I'd rather have the boat with better performance, better class racing and is still fun offwind due to the size of the sail. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 08 Oct 12 at 7:55pm
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I used to sit next too the kite blocks going upwind in the vareo that was far enough to get the arse out i found if i sat and further forward i could not adjust anything with ease but that was once you were hiking i still love the vareo found it a great boat to sail and fun thing all round i cant comment on the phantom but i am looking for a cheap one to sail this winter as they seem a demon on lakes .I sailed my vareo on the open sea and we only had w/l courses which suited it down to the ground ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: crosby mafia
Date Posted: 08 Oct 12 at 8:46pm
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Matt, offer is still open to try a phantom at Crosby, just had our Phantom open. Won by Ed T. Our Frostbite starts in a few weeks through to April. Ed probably coming to play also. Could be a decent fleet of phantoms. ------------- Better a crap day in Abersoch than any day at work. |
Posted By: bferry
Date Posted: 09 Oct 12 at 7:16am
Regarding the toe straps, many Vareo owners upgrade the standard ones with full length rooster (LDC also have similar ones now) The full lenght ones allow you to move further forward in the boat thus enabling you to lift up the stern in low wind conditions. However, having said that, you don't really need to hike in those sort of conditions.
The sail shape is very dynamic and with a composite mast tip the cunningham and kicker settings (and the outhaul) enable you to get a very flat sail shape. The mast's flexibility means that the cunningham is visually very obvious.
The trick to having light steering is to control the boats direction with the sails more than the tiller. This keeps the speed going and reduces the pressure on the rudder foil.
------------- Bernard Vareo 249 Miracle 2818 Malta |
Posted By: MattHarris
Date Posted: 09 Oct 12 at 10:07am
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Thanks for the offer, for the time being my budget has dropped from 4k to 1-2k. Based on this i'm not going to be able to get a newer Phantom so i'm back to square one in some ways. I've notived a few older GRP/Epoxy Phantoms, whats the speed difference between theseand the newer boats? Equally in this price range the Supernova looks an interesting bet although I'm not 100% sure on teh weight carrying for 15 stone... ------------- Phantom 1175 - Alice http://www.thelostpenguin.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.thelostpenguin.co.uk |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 09 Oct 12 at 10:48am
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Potentially grp are a lot slower. Some were up to 14 kilos overweight. Still very good value for club racing and having a Damn good sail, just wouldn't cut it at national level.
Early epoxies are still very quick if in good condition but I don't think you'll find one of those below 3.5k at the mo. Epoxy phantoms only started at sail number 1100 so if you see anyone claiming an earlier number than that is epoxy then they have made a mistake. Don't dismiss a grp one though if you only want it for py racing its still a lot of boat for the money. At our club we race epoxies off of a different py than wooden or grp phantoms to even it up a bit. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |