B14

   You could be right about the guy being put off by buying an I-14, but equally you could say the same about a B14 also, just because you found the boat easier to sail, he may not. Ideally for an entry level skiff, the 800 is the best option in my opinion or either the 29er. Neither of us know exactly what the skill level is of the guy we are giving the advice to or what his capabilities are. Both me and my crew started sailing skiffs at a similar age, it was tricky but we both picked it up, and partly I'd say youth was down to that. If I was to start a fresh again at my age, I'd probably not be able to take to it as I did when I was younger. It's not for everyone, and that is part and parcel of the risk you take when you buy your first real high performance boat.
I haven't got any 14 trophies, and I do respect and get on with a lot of the guys in that fleet. My point was just purely based on sailing the boat, not winning races at the Nationals, Euros or Worlds. I wouldn't say I'm putting the fleet down, actually, I have said that the fleet do a lot of good stuff to encourage new comers into the class and all this stuff about how hard the boat is to sail actually contradicts a lot of that. Other people reading this thread may start thinking the I-14 is a very difficult boat to sail and put off by it. What is actually wrong with me stating another opinion?  

Other stuff which has been mentioned about it being hard to sell the boat on is actually untrue also from my perspective. We sold our boat within a month of it going up, pretty much for the price we bought it for, 2 years after and had at least 3 other enquiries after the boat came off the market. I almost bought another one this year, so have been keeping an eye on what's been coming up and going, based on this I'd say at the present moment, the B14s are sticking more as they seem to be up for sale a lot longer.

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Menace Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Oct 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 296	Post Options Post Reply Quote Menace Report Post Quote Reply Topic: B14 Posted: 07 Dec 10 at 8:37am
	You could be right about the guy being put off by buying an I-14, but equally you could say the same about a B14 also, just because you found the boat easier to sail, he may not. Ideally for an entry level skiff, the 800 is the best option in my opinion or either the 29er. Neither of us know exactly what the skill level is of the guy we are giving the advice to or what his capabilities are. Both me and my crew started sailing skiffs at a similar age, it was tricky but we both picked it up, and partly I'd say youth was down to that. If I was to start a fresh again at my age, I'd probably not be able to take to it as I did when I was younger. It's not for everyone, and that is part and parcel of the risk you take when you buy your first real high performance boat. I haven't got any 14 trophies, and I do respect and get on with a lot of the guys in that fleet. My point was just purely based on sailing the boat, not winning races at the Nationals, Euros or Worlds. I wouldn't say I'm putting the fleet down, actually, I have said that the fleet do a lot of good stuff to encourage new comers into the class and all this stuff about how hard the boat is to sail actually contradicts a lot of that. Other people reading this thread may start thinking the I-14 is a very difficult boat to sail and put off by it. What is actually wrong with me stating another opinion? Other stuff which has been mentioned about it being hard to sell the boat on is actually untrue also from my perspective. We sold our boat within a month of it going up, pretty much for the price we bought it for, 2 years after and had at least 3 other enquiries after the boat came off the market. I almost bought another one this year, so have been keeping an eye on what's been coming up and going, based on this I'd say at the present moment, the B14s are sticking more as they seem to be up for sale a lot longer.

Merlinboy Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 03 Jul 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3169	Post Options Post Reply Quote Merlinboy Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 10:45pm
	f**k it i just wrote a big response to that, and the forum denied me access.... Just for the record Menace, i have no problem with you..Why would i? i don't know who you are. I just have a problem with some of the crap you are coming out with. its got an arrogant undertone, and belittling the work people put in to be at the front of the fleet in a high performance boat. My previous posts make it sound like we could not get the M12 round a course, this is not the case. It took us a fair amount of time to learn but we were pretty quick in the end. I did however take time and money, something i started to get short of as my young family have grown. I would have another one tomorrow, but my old helm has now moved on to other campaigns (and proving to be pretty tasty) Anyway i am not rewriting a whole post, just to recap...i have no problems with you, i just think you need to think before you type ad you come across slightly arrogant, especially when commenting on a which boat thread, when the OP is obviously a young impressionable lad. IMO him buying an M12 would mean he probably would be put off (due to the learning curve, and lack of regular crew) and leave the sport within 6 months and as such its recommendation is irresponsible.

Menace Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Oct 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 296	Post Options Post Reply Quote Menace Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 9:34pm
	Jaws was on about a 49er for a while too, the 14 isn't as bad in my opinion and I feel I'm quite entitled to that opinion as I've owned a 14 for a while and actually didn't find it too bad to sail. here are the reasons: 1) I found the boat fairly stable londitudinally due to the T-Foil, much easier to sail in chop than other skiffs I've sailed. You can get away with a hell of a lot more on a 14 2) The rig is fairly responsive and easy to keep upright due to it's weight. If you tune the boat well it isn't that difficult to keep upright. 3) My partner, who has sailed both 14 and Cherub reckons the Cherub is a much more twitchier boat and others thought that was acceptable. (I would listen and value her opinion over anyone on this forum as I know she is a good sailor and has won many notable races and events.) 4) The boat is fairly narrow for a twin trapeze skiff so easier to cross during tacks and as you are tacking the boat flat through the tacks, it's slightly easier than where you have to use your weight bias to steer the boat. Granted narrower boats tend to be tippier but the T-foil stuck on the back sorts that problem out in my opinion. 5) I personally find trapezing easier than hiking, therefore would see that as a plus point from my perspective. 6) I know a few father/son , father/daughter teams who sail 14s ao don't actually view them as big and scary as some make out. I'm not going to waste any more time justifying my opinion, I have it because of my experience of the boat which was over a few years. If you think I'm irresponsible advising this boat which I only said you might actually want to consider also anyone else who has made any recommendation about any high perfortmance boat, whether it be a 49er, I-14, B14 or anything else is equally irresponsible if you don't know the person you are advising is actually up to sailing the boat. I'm assuming the guy I'm advising will do a bit of research himself and have explicitly said make sure you try ANY of the boats mentioned before you buy, firstly to ensure you can sail it and secondly to make sure you're not buying a boat you don't like. Anyone who buys a boat solely based on "forum advice" is asking for trouble. All the reasons MB gave for the B14 are good reasons, I'd say even more so for an 800 bar the smaller friendlier class, I'd say larger friendlier class for the 800 but that was a bad idea because I came up with it and not someone else. Jaws doesn't want an 800 so not going to argue the point, he actually said something hinting towards the 800 could be a bit too easy so my logical step was to think of the I-14. I don't care for the I-14 much in actual fact but I don't think it's as big and scary a boat as some make out and in all fairness, think it's counter productive for the class to be portrayed in that way. They do run events such as the arm band cup to get more interested in the boat and there's the win a boat for a season thing, supposed to be for complete newbies to the class, too, which I actually think is quite positive. For all the 14 bashing I've done tounge and cheek it is quite a good class and I'm not going to change my opinion on the boat based on what others are saying. It's not outside the realms of possibility we have different opinions on the boat which are equally valid from our own perspectives. I struggle playing golf, does that mean by default everyone else is going to? I don't think like that but just because you find a boat difficult to sail personally. doesn't mean everyone else is.

Jamesd Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 01 Feb 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 377	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jamesd Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 6:08pm
	I totally agree with MB, suggesting a M12 14 or for that matter any modern-ish 14 is ridiculous.

alstorer Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899	Post Options Post Reply Quote alstorer Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 8:25am
	add in "one at the club already" (even if we weren't around that much this year)
	-_ Al

Merlinboy Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 03 Jul 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3169	Post Options Post Reply Quote Merlinboy Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 7:55am
	Actually Menace you are, you are questioning my sailing CV and as such trying to belittle my advice. Both Alex and George (From BBSC) both owned/own a 14, but neither hull is an M12. the facts are this the OP wants a fast boat, he struggles for a regular crew (sorry if thats wrong) and is all up 20-22 stone. I feel its irresponsible to try and convince him that a M12 or modern rules 14 is a viable option, they are bloody quick and extreme boats, they can be expensive and hard to re-sell. He would be much better suited to a B14 (I have also owned one of these) for the following reasons: Cheaper to be competitive Closer to class weight Friendly smaller class More of an open circuit *Easier to train a new crew.

Menace Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Oct 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 296	Post Options Post Reply Quote Menace Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 11:11pm
	Woah, calm down a bit, I'm not having a go at you, just wondered why you were being so ar$ey with me in the first place. There have been numerous young guys on this forum who have managed 14s relatively well, quite a few from Bough Beach SC, so saying that the boat is a good alternative to a B14 isn't too bad a recommendation.

Merlinboy Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 03 Jul 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3169	Post Options Post Reply Quote Merlinboy Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 10:43pm
	Plenty qualifies me, i sailed a M12 GBR 1502 with a helmsman who is pretty damn quick, so i know how hard the M12 is (compared to other 14's), you are not giving it justice and having someone jump straight in from a 29er is just not fair and i feel irresponsible especially at a comined weight of 20-22stone. It will almost certainly do more harm then good. I suggest you re-read my post about the 505 and not mis quote me!!! ("Jimbo in Graeme's criteria of sailing from A to B, the 505 is probably one of the most sea worthy stable platforms out there. I didn't think he meant racing, if that were the case then hell, a 505 is well up there. my point is that its a stable craft and can be simple to sail."). The 5oh is very sea worthy and stable, a novice could sail it. But not well or quickly, its a forgiving boat and that's a well known fact. It doesn't mean i would recommend it to beginner. I have spent more then a little time in other classes pal, try doing a little more research instead of picking up on some old forum threads!!! Edited by Merlinboy - 05 Dec 10 at 10:45pm

Menace Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Oct 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 296	Post Options Post Reply Quote Menace Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 10:01pm
	MB what qualifies you to say that, James I think said he thought a 505 is difficult to sail in breexe, you said it's fairly straight forward. My opinion of the 14 is similar, compared to other boats it's not thst difficult. Have you spent antime sailing any of the other boats I mentioned or is your experience solely based on comparing a Boss to a 14? Fair enough, the comment about having a cup of tea 2 sail reaching was a bit of an over exageration.

Merlinboy Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 03 Jul 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3169	Post Options Post Reply Quote Merlinboy Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 9:08pm
	I have heard it all now, what a crock of crap!