B14
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
Forum Discription: Ask any questions about the sport!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7392
Printed Date: 06 Aug 25 at 4:24am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: B14
Posted By: Jaws
Subject: B14
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 9:55pm
Having narrowed my search down, ive decided that if i want to singlehand i'll go MPS, but i find doublehanding more fun. As such, i think that it's a choice between 29er or B14. I havent sailed a B14 before, so just a few questions about them:
I sail at TBYC, no fleet of B14s but only one 29er anyway, so not much of either. Plenty of space. Assume combined crew weight say 130-145 kilos, 20 to 22 stone. I have reasonable experience helming assymetrics in fair winds. Thanks :) |
Replies:
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 10:18pm
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I'd normally say to see the http://www.alan-davis.net/sites/b14/forum11/index.php - B14 forum for more in depth answers but new sign-ups are currently off due to website moving stuff or something, so here goes: exact weight? Not so sure. There are some lightish teams able to fly like the clappers even in bigger winds. Current North main is easily depowered. You'd be at the low end of the weight range. Hiking? Light teams hike hard. Heavy teams can be more upright, and my helm seems to view hiking as optional. Main sheet loads aren't bad. Helm takes the main, and upwind can use their bodyweight to help pull it in as it is boom-sheeted. Jib loads can be pretty high, even with cleats, a ratchet and 2:1 sheeting! Spinnaker loads depend on how stupid you're being. They were really, really high when we snapped the mast this year... They're not ideal if you have trouble with having a regular crew. The kite hoist and drop especially takes a reasonable level of coordination and understanding to go smoothly. Barry and I would love it if there was a second B14 at TBYC. Various things conspired to result in us barely being there this year- but with a second to sail against, we might make more of an effort. Not sure when we'll have the boat back down there, but once we do (spring sometime), if you're still deciding I'll try and remember and we'll get you (and your crew) out for a trial. (GBR766- now with new stern) ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 10:34pm
| Where you at the TBYC open in September? If so, did you break the mast there? I was watching one of the Bs when the upper third snapped on the downwind (just as my father pointed out its speed), pretty impressive i must say :) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 10:45pm
As do most other helms... |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 7:00am
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That was us Jaws. It all went very, very wrong very quickly- massively overloaded, Barry tried to ease the main and dropped it. Unlike the 29er, it does have uppers to support the spinnaker hoist, but those can only help so far. Usually need, like most big spinnaker boats, the main to act as a backstay.
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 8:49am
So if you got a 29er there would be 2 - someone else might think well theres two now so i'll get one and a small fleet is born! ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 9:38am
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but with their combined weight of 140kgs they would be massivly over weight in the 9er and only get wiring in the heavy stuff, granted they may be quicker in that but still most of the breeze in the uk is light
------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 5:10pm
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I doubt very much that any more 29ers will pop up. Most are content to stay in Fevas, Cadets and picos until they either stop sailing or move up to another boat later. Alternately, they get a cat, and sail it incompetently. When the last/first 29er came, everyone wanted one, but nobody except myself had the freedom or real will to get one and then to sail it enough to do anything worthwhile with it if they did get it. We don't really have many boys, and the girls simply don't want to sail that often/hard. How tippy are B14s compared to 29ers? and also, how technically challenging to sail are they compared to 29ers?
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Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 8:28pm
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No brainer, get an 800! Here are the reasons
1) Quick skiff (almost as fast as a 49er).
2) Good healthy Class association.
3) Easier to train part time crew up (bagging the kite on a B14 will be a ball ache with a "part time crew").
4) Rewarding to sail.
5) Currently have a stable boat builder.
6) Will hold their value well and easy to sell on if you want to progress onto something like the 49er, which you may not want to do after sailing the boat for a while.
7) Good fun, with little hassle.
8) Doubtful if the boat will have an OD design update, unlike things like "lets put carbon racks on the boat."
I'd say their slightly less interesting than the B14 but a much better option, my heart would be saying B14 (having an experienced crew) but I'd still end up going with the head and buying an 800. You could always buy a really cheap B14, see how it works out for a while, upgrade if it's going well or cut your losses on ebay if the worst comes to the worst.
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 8:40pm
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Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 8:52pm
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Deck updates haven't affected performance, older boats are still competitive.
If you don't have a constant crew, what's wrong with having less to do up front? That's a bonus in my opinion.
Don't know the situation with the B14 builder, but until something happens, wouldn't count my chickens before my eggs have hatched. Shame ovi dropped the boat and don't want to look too far into it.
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 10:13pm
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But the B14 racks carry corrector weights so have not increased performance either.
By the way i dont own a B14. ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 10:17pm
Should hope not, never had you down as a washer woman... ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 10:38pm
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I did own one for a few months Grumpf, we were far too heavy for it though. I bought it cheap to use over the summer and had no intension of keeping it long term. I really enjoyed it, its such a well manered boat: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1155913&id=633307656">  ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 12:33am
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If ever a boat needed bringing up to date and that stupid kite bag ditching. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 8:11am
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If you ditch the bag you lose some of the challenge and a lot of the appeal for some folk. I really wanted to get a B14 over an 800 because it was a more challenging boat to sail, lose the bag and it just becomes a hiking 800.
RS really peeved me off with the 400 proposed changes and if there was a better boat to match Jaws's requirements in my opinion, would be whole heartedly recommending that. Buying an old B14 is a good solution and ticks the box of not giving RS any cash. In the back of my mind, I'd be thinking about the Rebel Skiff if it was my decision to make.... (and I had enough cash).
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 10:53am
If you followed the story earlier you'd have seen that the sailors have asked RS to loook into changes not RS forcing something on the class.
For all the knocking of RS on here i think they have done more than anybody in the last 15 years to make the UK dinghy scene one of the most exciting and vibrant in the world. We are also in teh lucky position of having plenty of choice aside from them if their designs down float your boat so to speak.
------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 10:55am
It's statement like that, that make me chuckle, "ooh we like it 'challenging' makes it so much fun nobody buys the boat anymore, we then get to be exclusive and declare National "Champions" from twenty five participants." So when did the builder ditch it?
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 11:26am
What does the crew do upwind apart from trim the jib and hike/trap in both boats? ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 11:31am
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presumably the crew in a B14 is allowed to play the main - where as its against class rules in the 800 ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 11:34am
Why Not? That's stupid, the best thing I learned sailing with young Dan in the real gusty stuff was to hand him the main sheet since he had more sense out on the wire of when the big gusts were coming in that round island race, from the moment we did that we were picking up places left and right until the frikking boom broke.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 11:47am
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I typed a long reply in teh quick reply box and it got lost - AGAIN!!!!
Basically the idea being to try and equalise any competitive advantage evry experienced crews might have when it gets hairy. Its all to do with how the class markets its self as an accessible twin trap boat i suppose ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 11:53am
I suppose you can do in the B14 but no one does, all the helms take the main. ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 12:02pm
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you need to trim the jib constantly in any winds to keep the boat driving, so the crew is kept busy, my crew is normally dieing after a windy race, ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 12:16pm
Even the Australians? If so that does suprise me. |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 1:08pm
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Yup, the aussie helms do the main. The French swap sheets- but they swap back for tacking. This is slow and obvious, but they've shown some good (but not world-beating yet) speed.
It's a pretty big jib without a self tacker. it rewards being played up wind. Also, the crew can play the kicker and cunningham- the really quick teams are constantly adjusting them as they move through the gears. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 2:04pm
| I can't say i love the 800, its really 29er vs B14. Which is more difficult (to do club racing in), and then the controversial question: which is more fun to sail? Assuming that i have a regular crew, which i'm sure i can manage. Even if it ends up being my dad... |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 2:29pm
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the b14 isnt brilliant at club racing, due to the shape of the kite HOWEVER, there are different cuts of kite, we have a flatter one RS-02 which is designed for round the cans, this makes it nice and easy to sail ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 3:28pm
| Is the issue that there's too much depth in the standard kite, so it can't point high enough to make the mark? Also, how well does the boat deal with chop? |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 5:34pm
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It's great at dealing with ugly stupid helm & crews.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 5:51pm
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Thorpe Bay run W-L for assymetrics. Which is nice. It's quite fun on the longer races too- the Nore race was an utter blast this year, though along the Sheppey/Medway mouth leg we really were glad of the weight we carry- we were able to drive really, really hard on the 2-sail reach over the chop.
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Flick-Flock
Date Posted: 02 Dec 10 at 6:13pm
After about 3 sails I found the bag kite on our 5k just as quick and easy as a chute kite to drop. Admittedly it's a bit more of a pain to hoist as the helm has to pull a bit of a string, which wouldn't be an issue if the helm did the halyard as that runs really smooth, unfortunately we see to be set up for the crew to do the halyard. Bag kites shouldn't be a put off for a boat, they have their pros and cons. Some of the pros being; Super smooth halyard hoist (seriously, hoisting a dry kite out of a bag is like pulling line of the reel and the chandlery!), never having to shimmy down to the bow to sort out a kite that wont go in/come out of the chute and not having a big wet lump weighing the bow down. However they do mean the helm has to pull some string on the hoist (although a few chute boats have that as well) and they are pain when you capsize as you have to stuff the kite back in the bag with the boat on its side. ------------- Swimming after Laser 5000 5069 |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 03 Dec 10 at 8:15am
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The B14 handles chop quite well considering its relatively short length, also it does have a largeish bow and pleanty of rocker so it keeps its nose up. Bag hoists and drops are easy, we can get the kite up far quicker than most sock hoists at club level and drops can be far quicker as well. ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 03 Dec 10 at 8:27am
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and remember it doesnt have all that we kite sitting in a chute on the bow pushing the nose down
------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 04 Dec 10 at 9:49pm
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Have you considered an International 14 as well as a B14, just asking as when we were looking at boats a while back we were considering the B14, RS800 and I14 within the same selection group. Ended up saying f%ck it and bought a 49er instead as it was the best boat sailing wise from our point of view. Moral to the story, try before you buy.
Just mentioned the I14 as it's challenging but forgiving and a good sea boat with the T-foil on the back. You may prefer the B14 as the T-foil isn't everyones cup of tea. For a direct comparison between the 29er and B14, I'd bully Al into getting out in his boat.
What's better? B14 or 29er? There's only one way to find out.... F-I-G-H-T!!!!
Well axtually, no. Sail them and see!
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Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 04 Dec 10 at 10:19pm
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Well there's an old 96 I14 up for sale fairly cheap, or a more modern one with retrofitted T-foils which must be 2003-5 for a bit more... the first wouldn't be competitive on any level I fear, and the latter would be a bit too much of a handful for me at the moment i reckon. I may just have to badger for a b14 try-out. With a 29er i'd be able to race against one other 29er. No more will arrive, I'd know if anyone was planning on getting one, and they aren't. The B14 there'd occasionally be another B14, there's a couple of MPSs of almost identical speed. 29er has a much better circuit, although that's not that important because I'm not all that serious as a racer, I'd do maybe 2 opens and the Nats tops. One of which at home... Likewise, B14 generally draws 11ish boats to events, not as many, but not to bad an issue. 29ers are a bit unstable, it always feels like the most important bit of going fast in them is staying upright. Don't know what B14 is like in that respect, shall have to try one out. 29er has trapeze, but i can sail a trapeze boat anyway, so no great educational loss. Hmmmmm decisions decisions decisions :)
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Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 04 Dec 10 at 10:34pm
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what about a nice cherub? ------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 04 Dec 10 at 10:49pm
| I was surprised nobody had mentioned a cherub... what's the ideal crew weight? And how well do they cut through chop? And what sort of skill level is necessary? |
Posted By: neilgb
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 5:00pm
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'However they do mean the helm has to pull some string on the hoist (although a few chute boats have that as well) and they are pain when you capsize as you have to stuff the kite back in the bag with the boat on its side' ...its a matter of personal choice but on the 5000 the helm does not necessarily have to hoist or do the pole....crew two pulls to get the pole half out, hoist and then pole fully out (leaves the helm to balance/steer etc). If you do capsize with the kite up ( I have practised this a lot...) best way is for the crew/helm on the board to reach over, pull the kite onto the foredeck using the sheet initially (possibly into bag), right the boat and then quickly get things sorted and away you go !... On a general point I think bags are just as easy as chutes its just what you are used to....
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Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 5:29pm
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On our old 5000, the helm never did anything hoist wise unless it was incredibly light. As Neil said, helm balances, steers, does the main, etc, etc. If the helm is concentrating on hoisting in the centre of the boat, usually leads to trouble in any wind. Get the crew to pull 2 strings, not too tricky and a lot less wet. You'll notice a big difference in anything above a force 4.
Jaws, Cherub crew weight is somewhere between 120-135kg according to the Cherub guy at the boat show, although much heavier people do sail the boat. International 14 wise, wouldn't look at anything older than a Bieker 3 or a Morrison 11 and wouldn't go near a I-14 without a T-Foil, especially on the sea. We had a M12 for a while and it was a fairly easy boat to get on with. The newer I-14s are much easier to sail than the old ones in my opinion. Saying that though, you would get a really good B14 for the price of an okay I-14 and the B14 is a lot less hassle and just as rewarding a boat to sail. The B14 is a fair bit quicker than a Cherub also, anytime I've seen a Cherub sail well, they've sailed to their handicap mixing it with Laser 4000s and RS400s. Have you thought of a Laser 4000, good sea boat, reasonable class, cheap and as good, if not better performance than the 29er and Cherub? B14 is at another level of performance to the 29er but not necesarily that much higher skill level for you to master, try to get an Ovi B14 if you go for one.
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 6:35pm
I got to disagree with quite a bit of that. First off Pete Barton was sailing his Cherub a fair bit quicker then B14's during this (last) years winter handicaps (despite its handicap). Secondly the Morrison 12 is not a particularly easy 14 to get on with, the hull shape makes it quite a bit harder and less stable then the Bieker 5, in fact i think its well known in the fleet as being slightly 'twitchy'. Trust me i sailed one for quite a while!! If your looking for something thats going to be good entry level into this type of sailing then buy a B14, a i14 (modern rules) is going to take loads of time, practice and probably money (i know from experience) ------------- |
Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 7:16pm
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I agree that the I14 is probably too much money, time and effort to sail well, not to mention the cost of boats capable of competing in modern fleets. Cherub has similar problems. Laser 4000 seems a bit like a beefed up 29er, and i just don't really want to sail one. When it comes down to it, its 29er v B14. The 29er has the advantage of having another boat regularly, and a trapeze. I already have good experience sailing trapeze boats, so no great loss not sailing the 29er there. When it comes down to it, its a question of how important other boats are: either have 1 29er to race against regularly, or have the occasional b14 plus a couple of Mustos. Can a boat still be enjoyably raced without others that are identical? remember that TBYC has very long courses, about 20 mins per lap in an assymetric like b14 or 29er, and 35 mins in a laser or sandhopper.
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Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 7:16pm
ihavent been online for ages, hence why cherubs were not mentioned, they seem to have a bad rep with certain people on this forumn.
The ideal crew weight is prob in the range of 140kg, i sail them (obviously) with my friend, we are both 16 and seem to deal with it fairly well. In terms of skill needed, they take a fair bit of getting used to but are actually fairly easy to make go well.
A historical problem with cherubs has been their hatred of chop... but recent Ellway designs certainly seemed to have solved this problem!!!! they are rocketships :D
in regards to people's view of them being fairly slow, this is certainly influenced by the fact that it is very much a lovers as apposed to serious racer's class, which contributes to slower PY due to the boats not being sailed to their potentil some of the time, however the class assosiation is certainly one of the friendlyiest.
lso, i have one for sale ;) ------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 8:17pm
I hate to disagree, we found our M12 relatively easy to get on with. We never sailed a B5 so can't comment on that boat but the class consensus is the B5 is easier than the M12, so you're right on that score. We owned our M12 for a good few years and I found it much easier than a 5000 or 49er, hence the relatively easy comparison. Could be a case of horses for courses, I just found the 14 quite straight forward and forgiving compared to other boats I've sailed and a little dissapointing really, one of the main reasons we stayed clear of the 800 too. My crew was of the same opinion and really wondered why we punted the 49er on. The 49er had the ability to suprise, the 14 seemed very tame in comparison, you could almost have a cup of tea 2 sail reaching a 14.
I didn't see Pete Barton sail his boat, but have seen quite a few Cherubs perform at the level I mentioned, hence my opinion is based on the average sailor sailing the Cherub, not Pete Barton. I've sailed a 420 faster than a 14 round a course, does that mean 420s are quicker than 14s??? Or could it be I was just sailing better than the guys sailing the 14 and was able to handle the boat better?
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Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 8:28pm
| John, have to agree, Cherub class is a really good class at the moment, really friendly and a good stand at the last Dinghy show, probably spent most time on it and I am not a Cherub enthusiast. Every time I see Atum Bomb up for sale, I have a "I wonder" moment. I just haven't seen them go that quick but it could be down to what you were saying about sailor competance. Hope things are on the up as you were saying, would be good to see them destroy a few other skiffs on the water.. |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 9:08pm
I have heard it all now, what a crock of crap!  ------------- |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 10:01pm
| MB what qualifies you to say that, James I think said he thought a 505 is difficult to sail in breexe, you said it's fairly straight forward. My opinion of the 14 is similar, compared to other boats it's not thst difficult. Have you spent antime sailing any of the other boats I mentioned or is your experience solely based on comparing a Boss to a 14? Fair enough, the comment about having a cup of tea 2 sail reaching was a bit of an over exageration. |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 10:43pm
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Plenty qualifies me, i sailed a M12 GBR 1502 with a helmsman who is pretty damn quick, so i know how hard the M12 is (compared to other 14's), you are not giving it justice and having someone jump straight in from a 29er is just not fair and i feel irresponsible especially at a comined weight of 20-22stone. It will almost certainly do more harm then good. I suggest you re-read my post about the 505 and not mis quote me!!! ("Jimbo in Graeme's criteria of sailing from A to B, the 505 is probably one of the most sea worthy stable platforms out there. I didn't think he meant racing, if that were the case then hell, a 505 is well up there. my point is that its a stable craft and can be simple to sail."). The 5oh is very sea worthy and stable, a novice could sail it. But not well or quickly, its a forgiving boat and that's a well known fact. It doesn't mean i would recommend it to beginner. I have spent more then a little time in other classes pal, try doing a little more research instead of picking up on some old forum threads!!!
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Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 05 Dec 10 at 11:11pm
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Woah, calm down a bit, I'm not having a go at you, just wondered why you were being so ar$ey with me in the first place. There have been numerous young guys on this forum who have managed 14s relatively well, quite a few from Bough Beach SC, so saying that the boat is a good alternative to a B14 isn't too bad a recommendation.
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 7:55am
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Actually Menace you are, you are questioning my sailing CV and as such trying to belittle my advice. Both Alex and George (From BBSC) both owned/own a 14, but neither hull is an M12. the facts are this the OP wants a fast boat, he struggles for a regular crew (sorry if thats wrong) and is all up 20-22 stone. I feel its irresponsible to try and convince him that a M12 or modern rules 14 is a viable option, they are bloody quick and extreme boats, they can be expensive and hard to re-sell. He would be much better suited to a B14 (I have also owned one of these) for the following reasons: *Cheaper to be competitive *Closer to class weight *Friendly smaller class *More of an open circuit *Easier to train a new crew. |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 8:25am
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add in "one at the club already" (even if we weren't around that much this year) ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 6:08pm
| I totally agree with MB, suggesting a M12 14 or for that matter any modern-ish 14 is ridiculous. |
Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 9:34pm
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Jaws was on about a 49er for a while too, the 14 isn't as bad in my opinion and I feel I'm quite entitled to that opinion as I've owned a 14 for a while and actually didn't find it too bad to sail. here are the reasons: 1) I found the boat fairly stable londitudinally due to the T-Foil, much easier to sail in chop than other skiffs I've sailed. You can get away with a hell of a lot more on a 14
2) The rig is fairly responsive and easy to keep upright due to it's weight. If you tune the boat well it isn't that difficult to keep upright.
3) My partner, who has sailed both 14 and Cherub reckons the Cherub is a much more twitchier boat and others thought that was acceptable. (I would listen and value her opinion over anyone on this forum as I know she is a good sailor and has won many notable races and events.)
4) The boat is fairly narrow for a twin trapeze skiff so easier to cross during tacks and as you are tacking the boat flat through the tacks, it's slightly easier than where you have to use your weight bias to steer the boat. Granted narrower boats tend to be tippier but the T-foil stuck on the back sorts that problem out in my opinion.
5) I personally find trapezing easier than hiking, therefore would see that as a plus point from my perspective.
6) I know a few father/son , father/daughter teams who sail 14s ao don't actually view them as big and scary as some make out.
I'm not going to waste any more time justifying my opinion, I have it because of my experience of the boat which was over a few years.
If you think I'm irresponsible advising this boat which I only said you might actually want to consider also anyone else who has made any recommendation about any high perfortmance boat, whether it be a 49er, I-14, B14 or anything else is equally irresponsible if you don't know the person you are advising is actually up to sailing the boat. I'm assuming the guy I'm advising will do a bit of research himself and have explicitly said make sure you try ANY of the boats mentioned before you buy, firstly to ensure you can sail it and secondly to make sure you're not buying a boat you don't like. Anyone who buys a boat solely based on "forum advice" is asking for trouble.
All the reasons MB gave for the B14 are good reasons, I'd say even more so for an 800 bar the smaller friendlier class, I'd say larger friendlier class for the 800 but that was a bad idea because I came up with it and not someone else. Jaws doesn't want an 800 so not going to argue the point, he actually said something hinting towards the 800 could be a bit too easy so my logical step was to think of the I-14.
I don't care for the I-14 much in actual fact but I don't think it's as big and scary a boat as some make out and in all fairness, think it's counter productive for the class to be portrayed in that way. They do run events such as the arm band cup to get more interested in the boat and there's the win a boat for a season thing, supposed to be for complete newbies to the class, too, which I actually think is quite positive. For all the 14 bashing I've done tounge and cheek it is quite a good class and I'm not going to change my opinion on the boat based on what others are saying. It's not outside the realms of possibility we have different opinions on the boat which are equally valid from our own perspectives.
I struggle playing golf, does that mean by default everyone else is going to? I don't think like that but just because you find a boat difficult to sail personally. doesn't mean everyone else is.
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 10 at 10:45pm
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f**k it i just wrote a big response to that, and the forum denied me access.... Just for the record Menace, i have no problem with you..Why would i? i don't know who you are. I just have a problem with some of the crap you are coming out with. its got an arrogant undertone, and belittling the work people put in to be at the front of the fleet in a high performance boat. My previous posts make it sound like we could not get the M12 round a course, this is not the case. It took us a fair amount of time to learn but we were pretty quick in the end. I did however take time and money, something i started to get short of as my young family have grown. I would have another one tomorrow, but my old helm has now moved on to other campaigns (and proving to be pretty tasty) Anyway i am not rewriting a whole post, just to recap...i have no problems with you, i just think you need to think before you type ad you come across slightly arrogant, especially when commenting on a which boat thread, when the OP is obviously a young impressionable lad. IMO him buying an M12 would mean he probably would be put off (due to the learning curve, and lack of regular crew) and leave the sport within 6 months and as such its recommendation is irresponsible.
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Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 07 Dec 10 at 8:37am
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You could be right about the guy being put off by buying an I-14, but equally you could say the same about a B14 also, just because you found the boat easier to sail, he may not. Ideally for an entry level skiff, the 800 is the best option in my opinion or either the 29er. Neither of us know exactly what the skill level is of the guy we are giving the advice to or what his capabilities are. Both me and my crew started sailing skiffs at a similar age, it was tricky but we both picked it up, and partly I'd say youth was down to that. If I was to start a fresh again at my age, I'd probably not be able to take to it as I did when I was younger. It's not for everyone, and that is part and parcel of the risk you take when you buy your first real high performance boat. I haven't got any 14 trophies, and I do respect and get on with a lot of the guys in that fleet. My point was just purely based on sailing the boat, not winning races at the Nationals, Euros or Worlds. I wouldn't say I'm putting the fleet down, actually, I have said that the fleet do a lot of good stuff to encourage new comers into the class and all this stuff about how hard the boat is to sail actually contradicts a lot of that. Other people reading this thread may start thinking the I-14 is a very difficult boat to sail and put off by it. What is actually wrong with me stating another opinion?
Other stuff which has been mentioned about it being hard to sell the boat on is actually untrue also from my perspective. We sold our boat within a month of it going up, pretty much for the price we bought it for, 2 years after and had at least 3 other enquiries after the boat came off the market. I almost bought another one this year, so have been keeping an eye on what's been coming up and going, based on this I'd say at the present moment, the B14s are sticking more as they seem to be up for sale a lot longer.
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