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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Evolution
    Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 1:05pm

Originally posted by getafix

"Drastic changes like removing "planking" or large weight
... and deck stepped, raking all-carbon rigs didn't?

No they didn't. Deck stepped has been around for years and buying a carbon mast is a different proposition to scrapping the hull. 

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getafix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 12:48pm
"Drastic changes like removing "planking" or large weight reductions would have obsoleted the current fleet."

... and deck stepped, raking all-carbon rigs didn't?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 8:27am

Originally posted by getafix


not neccessarily, the RS400 could be seen as a logical development of a lot of Merlin Rocket thinking and it's gone on to be a very successful class (likewise RS200 and N12???) ... but far from going into a niche, the Merlin has gone from strength to strength, as has the N12, you could argue though that the massive difference in new boats built between RS400/200 and Merlin/N12 shows that the older classes should have looked closer at some rules changes which were proposed, like the abolition of the 'planked' hull shape in Merlins, which would have made the boats much cheaper to build and perhaps kept the numbers of new boats being built up.... how many less RS400's would have been purchased if a cheaper new Merlin was an alternative?

Interestingly very few Merlin yotters (To my knowledge none of the circuit goers)  bought RS400s - most of the early top 400 sailors were also top Enterprise sailors.

I also believe - though i could be wrong - that most of the early top 200 sailors came from Larks, not 12s, though i think the 200 appeared just as the 12 appeared to have commited suicide with it's weight reduction so there may have been a few defectors i don't know i wasn't watching the 12 :)

It wasn't rule rule changes that saved the Merlin, it was the sudden availablity of an affordable and above all competetive all FRP boat courtesy of Mssrs Winder.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 7:13am

Originally posted by getafix

the Merlin has gone from strength to strength, as has the N12, you could argue though that the massive difference in new boats built between RS400/200 and Merlin/N12 shows that the older classes should have looked closer at some rules changes which were proposed, like the abolition of the 'planked' hull shape in Merlins

As you say, the Merlin class is thriving. Presumably therefore, the decisions made regarding rule changes were the correct ones.

While Merlins aren't, and never will be, the cheapest boats to buy, the hulls have a long competitive life, making the overall economics of ownership acceptable. Drastic changes like removing "planking" or large weight reductions would have obsoleted the current fleet. A former class chairman said that such changes should be contemplated if either very large numbers of new boats were being built (making the existing fleet less of a consideration) or almost none (meaning the class needed to change to survive). Neither of those conditions has applied over the last 20 years.

 

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CT249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 1:39am
Originally posted by getafix

"My understanding of evolution is that it often does tend to create highly specialised and therefore very vulnerable species."

not neccessarily, the RS400 could be seen as a logical development of a lot of Merlin Rocket thinking and it's gone on to be a very successful class (likewise RS200 and N12???) ... but far from going into a niche, the Merlin has gone from strength to strength, as has the N12, you could argue though that the massive difference in new boats built between RS400/200 and Merlin/N12 shows that the older classes should have looked closer at some rules changes which were proposed, like the abolition of the 'planked' hull shape in Merlins, which would have made the boats much cheaper to build and perhaps kept the numbers of new boats being built up.... how many less RS400's would have been purchased if a cheaper new Merlin was an alternative?


Good point, but I didn't say it always happened, I said it "often tends" to happen. As I understand it, some species evolve into tiny niches, but others evolve to being real allrounders (like rats, cockroaches and humans!).

Incidentally I would have thought the 400 was a classic example of a class that's not very specialised; it was designed to appeal to a fairly wide variety of sailors and to be fun to sail in a wide variety of conditions but without specialising just towards high speed.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowhammer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 07 at 11:23pm

it's hard to see what you could improve on ... it looks pretty close to perfection!

how about an aerofoil section hull for aerodynamic lift and added ground effect when on the foils, virtually a windsurfer board when not?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote I luv Wight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 07 at 9:37pm
The development /evolution of the moth has come to a bit of a standstill since 1995.

between 1984 and 1995 the developments were :
fat head sails
no need for storm sails
tall narrow pintail hull
carbon/foam construction
carbon spars
deck stepped mast with boom at the base
carbon wings
wings back to the transom
outboard shrouds on the wings
carbon foils
rudder gantries
T-foil rudders
flying hydrofoil boat
sleeve-luff camber-induced sail
reduced weight to allup ~28kg

The developments since then -   
some small improvements to the hulls and sails, but mainly a well sorted hydrofoil system.

http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
Andy P
foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 07 at 9:46am
"My understanding of evolution is that it often does tend to create highly specialised and therefore very vulnerable species."

not neccessarily, the RS400 could be seen as a logical development of a lot of Merlin Rocket thinking and it's gone on to be a very successful class (likewise RS200 and N12???) ... but far from going into a niche, the Merlin has gone from strength to strength, as has the N12, you could argue though that the massive difference in new boats built between RS400/200 and Merlin/N12 shows that the older classes should have looked closer at some rules changes which were proposed, like the abolition of the 'planked' hull shape in Merlins, which would have made the boats much cheaper to build and perhaps kept the numbers of new boats being built up.... how many less RS400's would have been purchased if a cheaper new Merlin was an alternative?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 07 at 4:01am
Originally posted by yellowhammer

Originally posted by CT249

If you looked at the evolution of the Moth from the viewpoint of an evolutionary scientist, you'd probably say that the most successful of the species was something like the old boat in the black and white pic.

The modern Moths is a freaking wonderful boat, no doubt about it, but surely the old ones are too - just in a different way.

interesting point ... evolution of dinghies seems to tend towards higher spec, higher performance, more specialism, life in a niche, high vulnerability to extinction

is that typical of evolutionary science? (beginning to wish I'd never started this)

to become a more successful species, maybe outrigger floats could be added to the racks to act as stabilisers, and then it might be more efficient to take away the centre hull ... add the foils back and you've got "Toastrack"

http://www.dcss.org/speedweek/toastrack.html



My understanding of evolution is that it often does tend to create highly specialised and therefore very vulnerable species.

I can understand the problem for designers and manufacturers. As we have become used to boats that are harder to sail (aided by better coaching, materials and clothing, and often more experience) then it's harder to create a new boat that a less expert sailor can handle, without having lots of us on the sidelines saying "but it's not fast enough".

Then again, I suppose the Feva etc show how well it can work (in terms of getting lots of boats on the water) when you get it right.

It just seems to be one more factor in making working out the best path for sailing incredibly complicated!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowhammer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 07 at 11:03pm

Originally posted by CT249

If you looked at the evolution of the Moth from the viewpoint of an evolutionary scientist, you'd probably say that the most successful of the species was something like the old boat in the black and white pic.

The modern Moths is a freaking wonderful boat, no doubt about it, but surely the old ones are too - just in a different way.

interesting point ... evolution of dinghies seems to tend towards higher spec, higher performance, more specialism, life in a niche, high vulnerability to extinction

is that typical of evolutionary science? (beginning to wish I'd never started this)

to become a more successful species, maybe outrigger floats could be added to the racks to act as stabilisers, and then it might be more efficient to take away the centre hull ... add the foils back and you've got "Toastrack"

http://www.dcss.org/speedweek/toastrack.html



Edited by yellowhammer
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