Evolution
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2676
Printed Date: 18 Aug 25 at 2:31pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Evolution
Posted By: yellowhammer
Subject: Evolution
Date Posted: 09 Feb 07 at 11:15pm
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Evolution of the Moth that is
Maybe this should be on the drunk postings thingamibob, but seeing the picture of Steve Nicholson in his Moth on the homepage made me think just how like a moth the boat has become in its looks and flitty behaviour What were the originals like, did they fit the name? ------------- Laser 3000 @ Leigh & Lowton SC www.3000class.org.uk |
Replies:
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 09 Feb 07 at 11:39pm
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Yep you're right! They've got wings, they fly, they flop about... The next stage in Moth evolution is to sail at night, erratically, as fast you can towards a very bright light and become unappetising gunk on somebody's windscreen. The original Moths looked like boats, I'm sure. ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 07 at 11:52pm
Prewar Moth page... http://moth.iointegration.com/Moth19.htm - http://moth.iointegration.com/Moth19.htm |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 10 Feb 07 at 12:30am
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If this is a current Moth:
this is its caterpillar!  http://moth.iointegration.com/ArchivePics/Moth19.3.jpg - ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC
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Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 10 Feb 07 at 2:46pm
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Please don't tell me she is sailing in a skirt... ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 10 Feb 07 at 4:01pm
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Whats wrong with that dont we all??? ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Feb 07 at 8:42pm
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It is the boom that caught my eye...looks like it is made from a long sausage... The boat, however, looks so similar to a British Moth that I wonder if there has been some confusion between the 2. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 10 Feb 07 at 11:45pm
classic BNS, i guess THAT was the 50's equivalent of trendily clad topper teens you've just convinced me on the development v. one design debate thank the lord for evolution ------------- Laser 3000 @ Leigh & Lowton SC www.3000class.org.uk |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Feb 07 at 7:26am
I don't believe there was originally any difference... I seem to remember that when the International Moth class was coalescing from a number of related boats world wide called Moths that some or all of what is now the British Moth elected not to join in. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 11 Feb 07 at 7:53am
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1938 in fact. http://moth.iointegration.com/Moth19.htm - http://moth.iointegration.com/Moth19.htm has more information. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 11 Feb 07 at 10:13am
If you looked at the evolution of the Moth from the viewpoint of an evolutionary scientist, you'd probably say that the most successful of the species was something like the old boat in the black and white pic. Old Moths of various types (NZ Moths, British Moths, US and French Classic Moths, Europes, perhaps Aussie Scows although they race with the Int Moths) vastly outnumber the Int Moth and have a wider spread. You and I may know which one we'd rather sail, but for the good of the sport it's wonderful that we have the hundreds of old-fashioned versions as well as the dozens of modern Moths. The modern Moths is a freaking wonderful boat, no doubt about it, but surely the old ones are too - just in a different way. |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 11 Feb 07 at 10:42pm
a very rapid evolution of moths in 10 years -
from ply magnum 5 wide boat 1984 to 
ply/carbon/kevlar narrow Axeman5 1995 Not much further development until the foilers - the hull shapes are still very similar. |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 11 Feb 07 at 11:03pm
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interesting point ... evolution of dinghies seems to tend towards higher spec, higher performance, more specialism, life in a niche, high vulnerability to extinction is that typical of evolutionary science? (beginning to wish I'd never started this) to become a more successful species, maybe outrigger floats could be added to the racks to act as stabilisers, and then it might be more efficient to take away the centre hull ... add the foils back and you've got "Toastrack" http://www.dcss.org/speedweek/toastrack.html - http://www.dcss.org/speedweek/toastrack.html ------------- Laser 3000 @ Leigh & Lowton SC www.3000class.org.uk |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 12 Feb 07 at 4:01am
My understanding of evolution is that it often does tend to create highly specialised and therefore very vulnerable species. I can understand the problem for designers and manufacturers. As we have become used to boats that are harder to sail (aided by better coaching, materials and clothing, and often more experience) then it's harder to create a new boat that a less expert sailor can handle, without having lots of us on the sidelines saying "but it's not fast enough". Then again, I suppose the Feva etc show how well it can work (in terms of getting lots of boats on the water) when you get it right. It just seems to be one more factor in making working out the best path for sailing incredibly complicated!  |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 12 Feb 07 at 9:46am
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"My understanding of evolution is that it often does tend to create highly specialised and therefore very vulnerable species." not neccessarily, the RS400 could be seen as a logical development of a lot of Merlin Rocket thinking and it's gone on to be a very successful class (likewise RS200 and N12???) ... but far from going into a niche, the Merlin has gone from strength to strength, as has the N12, you could argue though that the massive difference in new boats built between RS400/200 and Merlin/N12 shows that the older classes should have looked closer at some rules changes which were proposed, like the abolition of the 'planked' hull shape in Merlins, which would have made the boats much cheaper to build and perhaps kept the numbers of new boats being built up.... how many less RS400's would have been purchased if a cheaper new Merlin was an alternative? ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 12 Feb 07 at 9:37pm
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The development /evolution of the moth has come to a bit of a standstill since 1995.
between 1984 and 1995 the developments were : fat head sails no need for storm sails tall narrow pintail hull carbon/foam construction carbon spars deck stepped mast with boom at the base carbon wings wings back to the transom outboard shrouds on the wings carbon foils rudder gantries T-foil rudders flying hydrofoil boat sleeve-luff camber-induced sail reduced weight to allup ~28kg The developments since then - some small improvements to the hulls and sails, but mainly a well sorted hydrofoil system. ------------- " rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk Andy P foiling Int Moth GBR3467 Freedom 21 Codling |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 12 Feb 07 at 11:23pm
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it's hard to see what you could improve on ... it looks pretty close to perfection! how about an aerofoil section hull for aerodynamic lift and added ground effect when on the foils, virtually a windsurfer board when not? ------------- Laser 3000 @ Leigh & Lowton SC www.3000class.org.uk |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 1:39am
Good point, but I didn't say it always happened, I said it "often tends" to happen. As I understand it, some species evolve into tiny niches, but others evolve to being real allrounders (like rats, cockroaches and humans!). Incidentally I would have thought the 400 was a classic example of a class that's not very specialised; it was designed to appeal to a fairly wide variety of sailors and to be fun to sail in a wide variety of conditions but without specialising just towards high speed. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 7:13am
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As you say, the Merlin class is thriving. Presumably therefore, the decisions made regarding rule changes were the correct ones. While Merlins aren't, and never will be, the cheapest boats to buy, the hulls have a long competitive life, making the overall economics of ownership acceptable. Drastic changes like removing "planking" or large weight reductions would have obsoleted the current fleet. A former class chairman said that such changes should be contemplated if either very large numbers of new boats were being built (making the existing fleet less of a consideration) or almost none (meaning the class needed to change to survive). Neither of those conditions has applied over the last 20 years.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 8:27am
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Interestingly very few Merlin yotters (To my knowledge none of the circuit goers) bought RS400s - most of the early top 400 sailors were also top Enterprise sailors. I also believe - though i could be wrong - that most of the early top 200 sailors came from Larks, not 12s, though i think the 200 appeared just as the 12 appeared to have commited suicide with it's weight reduction so there may have been a few defectors i don't know i wasn't watching the 12 :) It wasn't rule rule changes that saved the Merlin, it was the sudden availablity of an affordable and above all competetive all FRP boat courtesy of Mssrs Winder. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 12:48pm
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"Drastic changes like removing "planking" or large weight reductions would have obsoleted the current fleet." ... and deck stepped, raking all-carbon rigs didn't? ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 13 Feb 07 at 1:05pm
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No they didn't. Deck stepped has been around for years and buying a carbon mast is a different proposition to scrapping the hull. |