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Building to optimise performance

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    Posted: 05 Dec 06 at 1:55pm

There was also an Albacore builder (Kingsfield) who build some boats which were either very close to the tolerance or even outside it but there were so many build before they measured them that they got a special dispensation from the assoc to race. These boats also plane earlier and are very difficult to get hold of as the owners mostly keep hold of them!

 

Matt Allot of the kingsfield albacores didnt measure and had to be modified to measure, they are fast planing boats but still not as quick allround as the old woof design which is allot better all round and still the bench mark for the rest of the albacore fleet here and ovver the pond.kings fields are only hard to get hold of because there wasnt many made.  They do still come up for sale, but there is always very very few albacores available forsale.

 

I also seem to remeber when i owned a solo, the association inspecting speed boats through complaint's from other solo sailers about how the distributed the weight of there frp boats, this was proved incorrect but it makes you wonder, how far these builders push to the limits.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 06 at 11:18pm
You can't really judge on one boat - its really rather easy to set up a Cherub up very badly, especially upwind.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 06 at 10:43pm

I really don't want to knock Cherubs but when I sailed on it was really poor in the lulls, slow and lots of leeway.  However a little puff got the crew out on the wire and it was fantastic, naturally it was faster but the real impression it made with me was that suddenly it pointed very well.

It was a similar problem to sailing an asymmetric downwind in gusty conditions.  If you get a gust you can sail deep and fast but in the lulls you might have to put a couple of extra gybes in.  The Cherub was like that upwind, sometime you were struggling to lay the mark and then you get a gust and you overstand!

Definitely optimised for wind.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 06 at 9:59pm
Just mentioned this in the cherub's thread but another factor with the 800 in light winds is the lack of a fully battened main. We had a race where the 4ks annihilated the 800s - the wing wang helped as well, in the 800s we goosewinged and left the kite in the bag downwind! It was only about 2-3kts though.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 06 at 9:36pm

JimC, I sure you're right about that.  Just a bit more important to keep the weight well forward in the light stuff.

I notice the 800 is quite capable of being beaten boat for boat by the 4000 when it gets really light.  They have flatter sterns but unfortunately they also collect water in the cockpit.  However having sailed one I know its the small centreboard that really kills it.  The 4000 has quite a big board for its size.

Mind you this is all academic since both boats are dogs at these low wind speeds and really the best place to be is in the bar.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 06 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by redback

I'm really impressed with the hulls but feel they don't tolerate heel very well - but thats correct for proper racing boat design.  If you look at older designs the maximum waterline width is further forward but they can be sailed on their ear.



It's also got a very big rig and a relatively small rudder, which I suspect plays a major part in their intolerance of heel. Being beamy means the wing hits the water at a lesser angle of heel than the gunwhale of a narrower boat as well.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 06 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by redback

if now, in retrospect would make the rear a little flatter?  I would have thought so.


Bearig in mind the 4 tonner is already pretty sticky in the light ore wetted surface at the transom might not be a good move!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 06 at 8:53pm

Back in the late 70s Scorpions were moving towards less rocker both in the keel and in the chines.  I suspect this made them inclined to plane earlier and possibly faster, however they seemed less able to carry wieght.  I've a feeling they where slightly less vee'd at the transom.

Recently I sailed the 59er this like the 29er and the 49er has a very narrow waterline under the mast and fine entry.  These boats move from non-planing to planing with hardly any transition and when planing slice along very cleanly.  They don't seem to be going as fast as they are.  Yet they aren't too unstable because they are quite flat towards the stern.

I'm really impressed with the hulls but feel they don't tolerate heel very well - but thats correct for proper racing boat design.  If you look at older designs the maximum waterline width is further forward but they can be sailed on their ear.

I conclude that if you have an old design boat with some tolerances it should be built with fine front sections, as little rocker as possible and flat around the stern.  The only thing to watch is that you are not heavy and you are very mobile in the fore and aft direction, you keep the boat flat and you don't sail in light winds.

I sail a 4000 which is not very flat at the stern and not very stabile.  I wonder if the designer (Phil Morrison) reads this forum and if now, in retrospect would make the rear a little flatter?  I would have thought so.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote TeamFugu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 06 at 4:25pm
All that being said. I've seen some guys sail very fast in what was concidered to be very slow at the time. In stressing one point of sail over another, you would tend to enhance performance in one area and degrade it in another. Now do you help your strong point of sail to be stronger or do you help out your weak points?

Time spent on the water vs. time spent pondering this question would be a better use of time. But then with temps < 0 C and snow on the ground, what other options are there?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 06 at 4:23pm

Well I can think of 2 classes where 'near the limit' dimensions are relevant not because they are faster alround but the difference in performance is significant because the plane at a lower speed.

When the Hornet class started having glass or cold-mouded wooden boats they tweaked the shape at the bow to increase volume and flatten it a bit and this maked it plane earlier - this was the Revolution (or Revvo) design.

There was also an Albacore builder (Kingsfield) who build some boats which were either very close to the tolerance or even outside it but there were so many build before they measured them that they got a special dispensation from the assoc to race. These boats also plane earlier and are very difficult to get hold of as the owners mostly keep hold of them!

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