how do you sleep at night???

...and Fireballs aren't allowed carbon anything! Not even tiller extensions.

At the fireball worlds, 14614 (one of the earliest all white winders), which must be about 10 years old now, came third overall. It may not have been sailed much in its lifetime, but it shows that the hulls havent made any significant developments (and it was using dacron sails )

Originally posted by charlie1019    what I feel has happen over the last ten ish years that the 4 digit py's have been instated for is that there have been fairly significant advances in the uses of materials such as carbon, keverlar and other such materials allowing builders of classes like merlins, fireballs, phantoms - classes that were once benchmark (primary py)  classes with minimal development - to push tolerances unlike they were able to before while at the same time producing stiffer and lighter hulls. Meanwhile strict one design classes have not been able to take advantage of these materials and are therefore almost being left behind. I don't care what anyone says but a latest generation solo is quicker than the older wooden and plastic boats and the same with the fireballs, both classes that have seen in the grand scheme of things a minimal drop in their handicaps (either that or winder boats have a good sales man!).

You make good points, except i still beleive you are being unfair on the Merlin which as a developmant class has undergone large changes in the past, but since we've had the 4 digit PYs has changed very little. The other boats you mention are fair game

IIRC the Australian Yachting Victoria yardsticks are worked out from a couple of big multi-class events where state & national champions compete.  This, however, is mainly because the majority of racing at clubs in Australia is class racing.  Particular clubs sail particular classes and there is no significant handicap fleet.

However, in the UK there is, comparatively, a phenomenal amount of handicap racing so as Jim says the volume of data available means that the statistical analysis in theory is much more likely to be accurate.

Having said that, it would appear to me to be relatively simple for the RYA to split out coastal clubs from Inland clubs and produce 2 yardsticks for each class based on coastal sailing or inland venue. 

I personally would be interested to see if there was any significant difference between the two...

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd Originally posted by allanorton why not run something like the endeavour trophy as a weekend of pursuit races where the top 3 ranked crews from each fleet race in their own boats, then work out handicaps from the results of these races? Wouldn't everyone do their best to lose?

Why?

If you managed to get in the endeavour, wouldn't you try to win?

Most top sailors aren't bothered about PYs, they're not motivated by handicap races, they go for national, european & world titles.  I don't think they'd throw a race of the stature of the endeavour, just so their fleet may have advantage in a club handicap race!  If the prizes and title were really credible, it could be a really good event for the RYA to run & good for sailing spectators.

Edited by allanorton