so come on boys and girls what should your py (merlin boys and girls) really be????


as an onlooker it should be (with an upto date boat: which is what all the other development {maybe not the very very latest design/mod but recent development} classes go off of!) about 990!?????

So what other classe do people feel are getting away with murder, if only i had the money....

The Merlin PY hasn't changed for quite a while, but it must remembered that despite it being a development class, apart from bringing the method for measuring the spinnaker in line with the other sails and very minor tweaks to the hull the boat hasn't changed either! The last change if i remember rightly came about at the time of the wholesale PY switch and coincided with carbon rigs coming into fashion. Also the Merlin attracts a lot of very, very good sailors. 

What other boats are getting away with murder?

Phantom, Fireball, GP14, and any other one design that has undergone a massive change in either rig or construction. Cherubs and other big "Ultimate" development classes also do but unfortunatly it's the nature of the beast.

As i've said before the best solution is to give the staid classes a boost rather than keep trimming the progressing classes back.

As for 990 that's just ridiculous.

As for how i sleep, very well thank you!

The PY number is for the class as a whole, not for the most recent boats. This will always tend to favour development classes.

Anyway, get a grip, it is only handicap racing. Not important enough to lose sleep over.

Classes don't "choose" their handicap. It is set by the organising club, in most cases unaltered from the RYA's published numbers. If you think they are wrong, you can blame the club running the race, you can blame Stuart Creswell (who runs the PY scheme), you can blame clubs in general for not sending in enough returns (certainly true) but I fail to see why you should blame the class associations, who have no part in the process.

the hurricane sx has been redesigned around the rules(aka smaller self tacking jib)

other cats have been built around the rules aka the spitfire

i must point out this is using small cat handicap not py!

I wonder if any Merlin or ex Merlin sailors are on the PY committee? I'm not suggesting that would effect anything if returns are all that is considered, but if there's some flexibility built in?

An element of flexibility may of course work the other way i.e. Maybe the committee can raise a classes PY if they know it has developed beyond the number the PY returns indicate. Does anyone know if this can or does happen?

If it can, its  hypothetically possible that as the more modern Merlins tend to race mostly at opens, and the older Merlins at clubs, the actual returns would have raised the Merlin PY but the committee reversed this!

I don't know if it can happen, but I think it should.

The handicaps should be decided by a committee with the power to override the returns system. They should use the returns PLUS the performances from the large Winter handicap events, the Bloody Mary, Tiger Trophy etc. The figures should be changed every year and announced at the Dinghy Show.

Take the Merlin fleet as an example: the top new boats are competing in large handicap events such as the Bloody Mary off a handicap as determined by the folks who club sail in their older boats. It's completely flawed. I believe a class's handicap should reflect the performance of the very latest(best) boat in that class, not an average of all the boats. If the class then wants to recommend classic handicaps to older examples then all well and good.

There are certain inescapeable  truths which everyone knows, for example: Merlins, Fireballs, Phantoms have a good handicap, Lasers have a bad handicap. There will be many other examples I'm sure. So why they can't just be changed is beyond me.

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/forum/main/topic.asp?topic=2011&forum=main&comments=18&page=1&sort=5&order=1&search - http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/forum/main/topic.asp?topic=201 1&forum=main&comments=18&page=1&sort=5&o rder=1&search =

ok, stop winding people up and come and have a sail in one.

i know there are a few people looking for crews for some events, or we can sort u out a go in the back if you like?

i see what you are saying but you can win a handycap race in any boat it just depends on the wind so a laser 4000 should win in a F4 29er f6 so its mone down to the wind

what we need are hadycaps that tach in to aconnt the wind strengt and the waves so then a computer works out how fast a bouat should go in thos condishons and give it a handy cap for that day

and this could also apply for the cors that you are sailing so assmetiks will get a fear handy cap if its around the cans

and smetriclal boat wilkl get a beter one if it w/l

it all depends on the conditions.

as soon as the breeze is up merlins get left behind by boats that are planning upwind.

unless each class has a dif py for each condition then it is fair. its all swings and roundabouts...

 Agree with all of those. 

It would be good for the RYA to use their dinghy show to announce dinghy news. 

Interestingly, in Australia I think the Fireball sails of a handicap of 101, based on a system like our old one.  As I remember, the FB used to be on 105/106 when we used three digits.  For comparison the Tasar uses 108 in Oz and used to here, so I think the systems generally tie up well.  In mitigation, I guess it may be windier in Oz, meaning the FB sails to its potential more.  101 in new money is about 957 - currently the Fireball sails off 982.

It's been tried for big boats: a system called IMS. It was a complete farce,  deeply unpopular and rapidly abandoned. For example, when you say "wind strength", where do you measure it? At the clubhouse? It might be a lot stronger in the middle of the lake. When do you measure it? What about races when it is windy at the start and calm at the end?

It's only handicap racing. You can't take it too seriously. 

Well Jim, you go and win the Tiger Trophy in a Laser and I'll give you the £1000 myself! (As Les Dennis might say!)

Of course the conditions matter a great deal to the relative performances of boats and of course we shouldn't get too worked up about handicap racing - it will never be perfect by definition, but some boats have better handicaps than others. We all know it. We can argue amongst ourselves about which boats exactly, and by how much, but that's part of the fun!

As they say "you can't please all the people all the time" I think the current system is a good as you could hope for, in our Club tide too can have large bearing on the result, Contenders on a downwind plod with a favourable tide beneath will invariably do well. Our fast fleet results are generally very close with a mixture of the 59er rs800 & 400s and Contenders and Vareo's quite often ending up seconds apart. It's good to come off the water unsure as to whether you've done enough.

At our club we have a good merlin sailor top 10 most nationals who club races a newish laser. While he is always the leading laser in a 20 strong laser fleet the only time he wins trophy races is when he brings his merlin down to the club when he cleans up.

We do sail on the sea and i think this is were the laser really suffers 

I have anouther one for everyone.  The mirror handicap is shot to sh*t.  There is a mirror that is sailied single handed with 3 sails at our club. The kid isn't a particularly good sailor but when he is starting the race I sometimes have not even taken the cover off my albacore and in a pursuit race there is just not a chance of catching him.  The fact that he is a complete d*?k head doesnt hell either. I personally think that the mirror handicap needs a serious look at.  (I dont know i this makes a difference but we sail on a river/stream)

Has anyone else found this.

To be honest i don't know why people are converting their boats having competed as a visitor at Whitstable week in my 5 year old Winder and having at least the same boatspeed as the brand new / 12 month old boats in their home fleet. Being a pondie i never expected to be beating them, but we nearly won the last race in conditions where the dropped bow should make the mot differance (Breeze and waves).

Much of the "nose job" advantage is in the mind in my opinion.

If we're going to be picky about hull shape, how about also mentioning the "One Designs" which are built at maximum tolerance these days like the GP14 and Fireball are? Now these are changes that have actually had a profound effect on their class racing, which is more than can be said about the Merlin mods.

As for the "one string" adjustment system, it's in a similar vein to fiting an XD pack to the laser. Adjustment is easier, but how can it make the boat physically faster? You still have to get the adjustments right, else it's pointless having it!

All that proves is that he's better at sailing Merlins than Lasers.

I can't think of many more differant boats to sail.

hannah do you sail single handed??

Toppers are definatley faster than mirrors

The foiler moth is essentially a new class though. You certainly can't compare it to a Merlin!

Asking the race committe to reduce your handicap may seem honourable, but to be honest why should people do that when there are people sailing other well handicapped boats who don't?

The Merlin fleet at our club decided a couple of years ago that newer boats (what now be under 16 years old, or deckstep converted) would start 30 seconds behind the older boats at the club. This was as a result of some of the other classes complaining that they were being beaten all the time. What changed?

Nothing! Indeed we have just decided to start together as a fleet again because it ruined the class start at the club and was borderline dangerous in stronger conditions when the new boats were lining up for their start juse as the stragglers in the older boats were starting to get moving. Also being a restricted water there is not all that much advantage in owning a new boat - they don't tack so well!

The other classes are still being passed after 30 minuites in a hours race, but this i'm afraid has nothing to do with the Merlin handicap and everything to do with the differant ability ranges between the fleets at the club. Yes, the better Merlin sailors do own the newer boats, but the Merlin fleet also is the only fleet that travels en masse. Changing the Merlin handicap to reflect the race results at our club would be a waste of time. Indeed it would probably kill the club racing all together as we would need to go about 10 or 15 minuites later and end up racing for half an hour (we pursuit race). The outcome would either be a mass exodus of Merlins with dire consequances for the health of the club finacially, or a return to class racing which wouldn't bother me but would probably be less fun for other fleets.

1 2 Testing 1 2. I say again Py is not a measure of a boats potential outright performance it is a measure of how fast, on average, a boat is actually being sailed. IF the addition of anything to the boat makes the average performance of the boat increase, assumeing the system is being used correctly, then this should reduce the handicap.

Then what about the Laser yardstick?

All the one string system does is make life slightly easier..........just like the XD pack :)

The PY system is essentially blind to the boat, it relies totally on the figures.  So in the example of the Merlin one string sytem, if by the addition of this system the boats average speed is increased as it means the sailors are more often sailing the boat closest to its ideal speed then you should see a reduction in the PY.  If the addition of this system has no affect on the average speed of the boat then there will be no difference to the handicap. 

Now looking even more specifically, making it easier and quicker  to move from upwind to downwind settings and vice versa will free up capacity for other things, wind tactics accurate triming and weight distrubution etc so you would expect a well sailed boat with this system verus a well sailed without it to be marginally faster.  I suspect the difference in this case would be so marginal as to have little or no effect on the handicap.  However, you must realise that any change to a boat be it as major as hull design or as minor as adding an extra block to the kicker can have an effect on boat performance and therefore handicap.  In fact  it wouldn't suprise me to find that if you compare the polars of some development class sub-designs you would find that what are considered slower designs actually have better polars they are just 2 hard to sail at anywhere near that speed for the whole of a race...flying trifle anyone.

Surely given how the RYA collate the results the PY system must be a measure of the average performance of the boat, this as you say can then be modified to suit both the skill level of the crew and i believe the local conditions.  If it is was a measure of the boats speed potential then every design would need a set of polars and any changes would need to go through an incredibly convuluted process.  Which as we've seen in bigs boats simply doesn't work!

sorry Jim I've just worked out what your saying i think.  So the clubs when present their returns to the RYA they should have already modified the number, if they see fit, to allow for crew differences.

Underlying fact is that handicap racing stinks and will never be fair - you have to take the rough with the smooth with reference to conditions favouring different boats etc.

But some boats are more fair/unfair than others.  As an RS300 sailor I can never believe how much I have to beat a phantom by - (but reference above I don't really care cos it's only handicap - and it spurs me on/helps me train for the real stuff of opens!).  Situation made worse by the way the 300 handicap has dropped 6 points since coming in.

I do believe the big handicap events should feed the system - but I also believe that if club's want to see or work with fair/big handicap fleets then they have to take the bull by the horns and make arbitrary drops/increases.

Rubbish. We can all agree the Laser XD kit just makes things easier to adjust - there is no new rig position acheivable. The Merlin one string system is the most brilliant bit of rig adjusting kit I've yet seen. With one piece of string they can move the mast tip fore and aft by a huge amount and most significantly all the important adjustments are automatically made as well - like tension, lowers etc. This makes raking the rig forward at the start of every downwind leg and back again at the start of every beat realistically acheivable and with ease .

I know this was acheivable before but it wasn't anything like as easy, and I don't dispute that it's possible to make huge adjustments to rake mid race in many other classes but its not realistic as it often involves release of rig tension, removal of fast pins, moving of lowers etc and re-adjustment/tensioning of all affected settings - this could cost more time than could be gained.  I wonder if any will follow the Merlins lead.

Of course SMODs will not be allowed to.

In my opinion it (The one string) is a bit of a red herring. You pull the mast forward on a run. Fine - but the one string system only maintains the kicker tension so you need to ease it. You've now adjusted three strings (One string actually equals two, rig forward and rig back). The "one string" does not alter the cunningham. 4 strings.

On a conventional boat, you release the lowers, kicker and shrouds then haul on the jib halyard and undo the cunningham. 5 strings.

Where the "One string" is greatly superior is that in the event of you forgetting to release the lowers when you pull the mast forward you won't either lose the mast over the front of the boat or have to sail with a massively inverted mast.

The critical adjustments that you the most benefit from adjusting togther are the lowers and rake. Kicker and rig tension are dynamic controls that change all the time and should be played constantly. The one string system distracts from this.

The other big disadvantage is that in the event of a breakage 90% of us wouldn't have a clue how to repair it!!

Yes it is a brilliant piece of engineering, and does give a slight advantage in changeable conditions, but not the be all and end all of racing and does have it's disadvantages and well as it's definate advantages.

anyway we've digressed.

Yes, but that doesn't mean boatspeed differences are anything like that large. In a big fleet you effectively queue to round the marks and that spreads out the fleet.

When I was used to sailing in a fleet of 25-30, I remember being how struck by how close the racing was if only 10 boats turned up. The reason is that we weren't queueing to round the marks.

Thats fair enough

There is a defined process whereby the RYA produces PYs and the class associations are not part of it. Nor are "suggestions" part of it. It is a number-crunching process that attempts to be objective. 

Rubbish!

All the Merlin Rocket sailors I know admit their class has a generous handicap.

I sail a Fireball and the handicap's very generous. It doesn't have to be windy to win pursuit races either; anything over 10 knots will see the boat sailing faster than handicap.

Fireballs don't have a 'generous' handicap, any more than lasers have a poor handicap, they both have a primary yardstick, making it one of the handicaps that the rya is most confident about.

Latest news from the tasar website... (pinched without permission, sorry)

"Had some interesting conversations with other classes (at the Dinghy Show) primarily about handicaps and was surprised that the ones we think benefit were as concerned as anyone else (presumably the MR and FB?). The chairman's lobby is going to get this sorted. As yet we have no forum but watch this space. A discussion has started about a series to establish Champion of champion sailed in your own boat using existing major handicap events. Three top crews from each class would be eligible. The results could then form the basis of a revised PY system in subsequent years."

and the Laser sailors are complaining now?  wait till their handicap is set by a professional sailing the boat against amateurs, mark my words it'll all end in

Yeah, it would be a good event and a useful addition to the PY calculation, but you can't base handicaps on the results of one series.  It would also signal a shift in principal (principle?  BnS - do you know?) from basing the PY on average performance to class leading performance.  I think I am in favour of this but am open to persuassion.

me me I know...principle as you are refering to a fundamental belief not someone in charge...pat on the back please

Thankyou and well done!  

Handicap racing is important - in some clubs its virtually all the racing that happens. Surely no-one can deny that the big winter and summer H'cap events are 'important'.

The PY system should treat all classes equally.

I do however believe that some classes are treated 'more equally' than most others  - not because I don't like them (I sail one that's regularly cited) but because I see or read about them consistently doing well. It can't be coincidence  or just sour grapes that certain classes are often identified (and some openly admit) as having good handicaps while others are known to have poor handicaps. 

I'm not MR bashing here - they are a suberb boat sailed by top sailors. So are Fireballs and so are Phantoms. Because of that, all these classes perhaps expect to do well in handicap events Fair enough but , if the PY system is supposed to reflect race results rather than boat speed, we surely shouldn't get certain classes frequently appearing to have a better chance than most others? I've certainly benefited from a favourable handicap or two . But I also know that other classes I've sailed have harsh handicaps. Not that important when class racing but it does make them unnappealing for predominantly handicap racing clubs.

The PY system is the best method we have. But it's badly flawed.

Why can't classes be involved? Each class should be allowed to make a submission to the RYA committee. It should include any major improvements as well as any other factors  - to inform the RYA  - how can that be wrong?

From elsewhere on this site we find that only 25% of clubs make returns. So the PY system is increasingly without a sound statistical base. Even those returns are not strictly 'true' because they include the clubs (and in fact often just the results officers) subjective opinion of crew skill factor rather than actual performance.

Also, the system only reacts - giving any class that improves its performance an advantage until returns catch up - and that assumes that the class is sailed frquently at one of the 25% of clubs who send returns. In extreme cases, (say an increase in sail area) this makes a mockery of the existing PY, in others (mainly primary numbers) its just a steady erosion of the validity of the original data that the PY was based upon.

So we need increased returns - How can we increase returns? Well the system currently ignores statistically significant events such as the Tiger, Grand Prix, etc. It should include these events as over a few years, all conditions are likely, most classes will be represented and the number of race (boat) starts will be huge.

Another idea - Could anybody say whether it would be feasible for the RYA to host a website - say a derivative of sailwave which all clubs could use to work out their handicap results. All the data could then be collected and 'crunched', giving an improved data source.

Run out of steam!

I notice that the Fireball has come in for some stick, and admittedly (as a die hard 505 sailor) there have been a few breezey Grafham GP's with insanely tight reaches where I have wondered just what I had to do to beat the F/b's by 10%.

The SGP has offered the fleets that participate quite an interesting overview, that the RYA might not see from their returns.  As we see the "superstars" competing alongside the median sailors.

It is usually the "median" sailor who has the most influence (club races) on the actual handicapping stats.  So the key questions are:

Where is the median (volume + numbers) in the fleet?  And how far in front of that median are the top guys (the people you notice collecting the big chocolates) performing?

In a fleet as successful (and flexible in terms of weight range etc) as the Fireball, it is fair to suggest that the spread between a top crew, and the median marker - a standard club rigged (centre hooped) boat will be substantial.

Comparing what I have seen, the Javelin fleet (or most other Fastsail Classes) have less of a range from median to top - they sail to more similar levels (not better or worse....pls note).  Thus beating that bench mark by the 100+ points to win a major handicap/pursuit race is that much harder.

So I get both sides here, and I'm not sure that you can do much to make it fair to everyone, as all people will remember is who won the Silverware - but the people who use Handicapping the most are the intrepid club sailors....typically not the "professionals".

But it probably is worth remembering that Handicaps are equally affected by who finished where in the bottom third of any fleet, as by the winners.

Charlie W

PS - the 505 handicap has just been hit yet again 10 more points - 890.

We don't claim to be any faster.....really, read the forum....we're slow, boring and outdated.

at the end of the day as we happen to partake in a cool sport were things are different every time you go out and you have variations in course wind and sea state.  You will never get the PY to work across the hole range of conditions. unless you go down the IMS style of time on distance which is far to complicated.

Sorry Jim,

That wasn't a dig at the fireball fleet at all, they have done a great job in building a good fleet around a great brand!  That was supposed to be a defense of a system that is always going to be imperfect for someone somewhere.... 

My take on the reasons for that (differential in ability range - NB not ability - between fleets) does explain why in certain designs, leading sailors will struggle to "out perform" the capable sailor by as much as another. 

One interesting thing that fastsail (the SymGP organisers) have found is that the RYA arn't  - and are probably right not to be - interested in looking at what actually happens on the water between classes en masse.  I guess that the traffic effect distorts results substantively.

----------

On the 505 spinnaker side, the increase in speed happens only really on a longer leg run.  Now we take tactical windshift angles, so the increase in straight line speed is nowhere as much as the increase in VMG - we're sailing 30-35% further.

On a broad reach, short course, actually gybing one of these sails takes so much longer than it used to, you are often better to broad reach where you can. 

With longer drill times for a bigger sail, that situation certainly isn't any quicker VMG wise at all.

Although Windward leeward in marginal trapezing on the sea, it is quicker - much bigger grin....!

How do you know that?

AFAIK all club returns are taken into account. "Club returns" does not just mean "club racing". It means "handicap racing run by the club". The fact that only a minority of clubs actually make returns is another issue.

That is the flaw with any statistically-based performance measurement system. However for dinghies it is the only game in town. AFAIK nobody has even tried to produce an IOR/IRC/IMS type of performance prediction handicapping system for dinghies. It is just a lot harder for planing boats than it is for keelboats. 

Chris,

the situation with the 12s is if anything the opposite - the new designs of the past few years (Numinous, Big Issue 2, Bim 3 etc.) don't appear to have any significant advantage over the '96 Feeling Foolish design but since 2001 (I think) the handicap has dropped from 1099 to 1093....

Handicap racing is always 'every dog having its day' (as big boat racing has had to come to accept after the expensive cobblers of IMS).  In F2 with beats against the tide a 12 is pretty untouchable but in marginal planing with lots of reaching a laser is equally untouchable  - the classes that finish at the top of the big winter handicap events is pretty much predictable from the weather on the day...

Yes and to amplify Stefan's point about CSF it ignores the effect that the boat can have on the skill of the crew.

My own class the RS300 is noted for improving the sailing of even those who fail to really get to grips with it - due to the absolute requirement for balance and trim and it's responsiveness.

Matt

Do you really think so? Certainly not true for me or most of the people I know.

I don't know the numbers, but I would have thought that the majority of club racing is done in mixed handicap fleets these days.  Typically I would have thought here may be 2 or 3 class fleets with 5-8 boats and a handicap fleet of 15-20 so roughly even.  Most open meetings only attract 30ish boats, so I don't believe they make up that much of the total racing community (albeit they are perhaps at a higher level).

The Phantom was one I was thinking of in particular.

So you are saying handicap racing is what people mostly do. That may or may not be true but it is completely different from saying it is "all most people ever do".

interesting to see that others on the whole agree with me. Having let the banter run, now for my opinion.

 what I feel has happen over the last ten ish years that the 4 digit py's have been instated for is that there have been fairly significant advances in the uses of materials such as carbon, keverlar and other such materials allowing builders of classes like merlins, fireballs, phantoms - classes that were once benchmark (primary py)  classes with minimal development - to push tolerances unlike they were able to before while at the same time producing stiffer and lighter hulls. Meanwhile strict one design classes have not been able to take advantage of these materials and are therefore almost being left behind. I don't care what anyone says but a latest generation solo is quicker than the older wooden and plastic boats and the same with the fireballs, both classes that have seen in the grand scheme of things a minimal drop in their handicaps (either that or winder boats have a good sales man!). 

Maybe what the RYA should do is every 5 or 10 years publish new py numbers with larger changes that take into account recent material developments, setting up a panal to study how classes perform in certain conditions with handicaps foccussing more on a boats lighter winds performance, ie f3 or less(how often is it windy!??) , taking into account results from big handicap events aswell as club events? then these new handicaps can be given the pittyful tweaks over the following years that they are given now

good point charlie

Wouldn't everyone do their best to lose?

Why?

If you managed to get in the endeavour, wouldn't you try to win?

Most top sailors aren't bothered about PYs, they're not motivated by handicap races, they go for national, european & world titles.  I don't think they'd throw a race of the stature of the endeavour, just so their fleet may have advantage in a club handicap race!  If the prizes and title were really credible, it could be a really good event for the RYA to run & good for sailing spectators.