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Put these factors in order ....

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damp_freddie View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Dec 05 at 5:06pm
"The more I practice, the luckier I get"  - was that not gregg norman?


"boat speed makes me a tactical genius"- Dennis Connor?

" I've worked myself up from nothing from a state of  extreme poverty" - groucho marks
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Offshoretiger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Offshoretiger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 05 at 1:45am

OK I gess theres hope for me yet then    

Jamie, when I start stressing about nothing you know what to say!

 

 

...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!......
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 05 at 12:09am
Originally posted by Offshoretiger

Obviously this is not a problem the good guys have.


Oh yes it can be - maybe not necessarily boat tune but other things for sure. A vital role for a crew is, if you have a helm who gets distracted, is literally to tell him to shut up and sail the boat. One helm I crew for from time to time is far too prone to get hugely het up in tactical duels which don't advance the race strategy, and calming him down when appropriate certainly makes thing faster. But you said the good guys. How about this...

... now a couple of boat lengths behind us, I feel perhaps the most overwhelming relief I have ever known... "You guys just hauled me back from the precipice" I say. Grant looks up, just snaps out a phrase I am beginning to get used to, "shut up Bertrand and sail the boat". My mood is so buoyant that I look up with a huge grin and take my hat off the the crew in an extravagant gesture. Beasho glances up, glances down again, and says "we haven't won it yet and there's a damned long way to go. Sail the boat."


That's quoted from "Born to Win", John Bertrand's book about how Australia 2 won the '83 Americas Cup, and that was one of the turning points in the series. Reckon that's about as top level as it gets...




Edited by JimC
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Jamie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by NeilP

OT - you're missing the real point. When Jamie tells you not to worry about it, it has nothing to do with his careful analysis of the potential gains/losses as he claims, and everything to do with the fact that, being a stoodent AND a Sloth, he has absolutely no idea what's wrong or how to fix it!

It's all in code, like everything crews say

Oh Neil what a nice man you are.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Offshoretiger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 7:39pm

I agree the helm should be calling the overall boat tune as you have much more feedback. But I think what I was trying to get at originally was that worrying to much about your boat tune can slow you down as much as it speeds you up, particularly on a 'tweaky' boat. The times I am usually told to 'shut up and drive' is when our fleet position is fine and our boat speed is fine and I have somehow maneged to find time to start worrying about if we could point a wee bit higher or go a tiny bit faster if we played with this string or that string. Thats the point when I can slow us down by worrying about fine tune

Obviously this is not a problem the good guys have. What Im not sure is wether thats because they are always sure that there speed is as good as it possibly can be or because they always know what is important to focus on at each point in the race.

Neil - harsh and not really fair!

 

...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!......
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 6:27pm

Originally posted by Jamie

So if you look in to the boat to tweak the lifter, pull on some shroud or ease the forestay back you have to be aware that you are taking your eyes of the road.

We are talking at cross purposes. The original point I was responding to was crew saying "Shut up and steer". My argument is that it is the helm who is in the position to call overall boat tune. Crew just doesn't have the same feedback the tiller provides (and I've done plenty of crewing as well as helming). Who pulls which string is another level of detail. The helm shouldn't be doing things the crew can do and the boat should be set up so the crew can do as much as possible upwind.

If the helm is bobbing about trying to pull strings then either the boat is laid out wrong or the helm just needs to learn to do more than one thing at a time. The helm ought to know exactly where controls are without having to look for them. Nobody said it is easy.

I once talked to the guy who has won more Salcombe Merlin Weeks than anyone else in the last 15+ years. Sailing at Salcombe often involves long short-tacking sessions to keep out of foul tide, every 20 seconds or so for upwards of a mile. Before every tack, he eases kicker, tightens main sheet, roll-tacks the boat, eases mainsheet while head to wind, pumps the main back on as the boat is rolled upright, centres the traveller and pulls kicker back on  as the boat accelerates. All of that every 20 seconds for 15 minutes or so. I get exhausted just thinking about it.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 6:10pm

OT - you're missing the real point. When Jamie tells you not to worry about it, it has nothing to do with his careful analysis of the potential gains/losses as he claims, and everything to do with the fact that, being a stoodent AND a Sloth, he has absolutely no idea what's wrong or how to fix it!

It's all in code, like everything crews say

No FD? No Comment!
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Offshoretiger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Offshoretiger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Offshoretiger

At that point if I try and tweak to get the boat to go from feeling fine to feeling great we usually end up going slower cos I stop concentrating on driving.

Do you have to concentrate on moving your feet when you walk? Helming should be as natural as walking. If it isn't, you need to spend more time at the tiller. You can bet Ben Ainslie isn't "concentrating on driving". He is thinking tactics, wind-shifts, current, other boats and boat-tune. 

That said, one of the best things I found about being the driver but not the skipper on other people's big boats is that I could just concentrate on making the boat go fast. All the other stuff involved in running a boat with 9 people on board was someone else's problem, whereas on my own boat I had to deal with it as well as steer. Nevertheless, "making the boat go fast" means talking to the trimmers all the time to get the boat going, not just waggling the wheel and staring at the tell-tales.

Im well aware I need to spend more time on the tiller, spending less time in borrowed boats would also be great cos I could spend less time trying to remember if the blue string is in/out or up/down on the jib cars and which color the kicker is on this boat 

As you said above being the driver but not the skipper on a big boat is easier than running the whole crew. When Ive got main in one hand, tiller in the other, one eye on the tell tales, one eye on whats around me, one ear listening to my crew, part of my brain thinking about how the boat feels and part of my brain thinking about what I want to do next its no wonder that working out what bit of string might help, finding a spare eye to spot it and a spare hand to ajust it can sometimes slow me down a bit......

As for trying to walk under cars, there is no traffic were I live!! And I'll probably be even worse after a few more months in USAland, even if I remeber to look, Ill look the wrong way



Edited by Offshoretiger
...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!......
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Jamie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Offshoretiger

At that point if I try and tweak to get the boat to go from feeling fine to feeling great we usually end up going slower cos I stop concentrating on driving.

Do you have to concentrate on moving your feet when you walk? Helming should be as natural as walking. If it isn't, you need to spend more time at the tiller. You can bet Ben Ainslie isn't "concentrating on driving". He is thinking tactics, wind-shifts, current, other boats and boat-tune. 

No but she does have an unfortunate tendancy to walk into things. And is constantly trying to walk under cars.

Is driving a car as natural as walking? No you constantly have to look ahead and concentrate to keep controll. If you look into the car to say find the button on your radio you do so as quick as possible so as not to loose concentration on the coming road.

When driving your boat you have the extra complication of the road being constantly unstable. and the other road users not traveling on the same linear path as yourself. So if you look in to the boat to tweak the lifter, pull on some shroud or ease the forestay back you have to be aware that you are taking your eyes of the road. I know that I can't steer as good a path through the water when I'm trying to find the string that ajusts the lower shrouds. So in a situation that we will definatly loose more by fiddling when we are doing pretty well in the race I will tell my helm that we WILL loose more than we MIGHT gain.

Whether she listens to me is entirley her choice. 

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 05 at 3:34pm

Originally posted by Offshoretiger

At that point if I try and tweak to get the boat to go from feeling fine to feeling great we usually end up going slower cos I stop concentrating on driving.

Do you have to concentrate on moving your feet when you walk? Helming should be as natural as walking. If it isn't, you need to spend more time at the tiller. You can bet Ben Ainslie isn't "concentrating on driving". He is thinking tactics, wind-shifts, current, other boats and boat-tune. 

That said, one of the best things I found about being the driver but not the skipper on other people's big boats is that I could just concentrate on making the boat go fast. All the other stuff involved in running a boat with 9 people on board was someone else's problem, whereas on my own boat I had to deal with it as well as steer. Nevertheless, "making the boat go fast" means talking to the trimmers all the time to get the boat going, not just waggling the wheel and staring at the tell-tales.

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