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    Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 5:34pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Iain C

The one I struggle with is why FB's never went to a loose footed sail?


Why bother I should think. You get a very small decrease in the cost of a boom and a sail and maybe a tiny increase in boat speed, but it would make everyone think that their sails were outdated and that they needed new ones.

It would make it easier to adjust the outhaul ... and make it quicker to rig and de- rig; now that really is a benefit.

Rick

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 1:49pm
Ah, but it makes the jump to Carbon much easier .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Iain C

The one I struggle with is why FB's never went to a loose footed sail?


Why bother I should think. You get a very small decrease in the cost of a boom and a sail and maybe a tiny increase in boat speed, but it would make everyone think that their sails were outdated and that they needed new ones.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote TonyL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 10:07am
I think the original premise of this thread was that a SMOD was die over time as new technology emerges, and is adopted into new SMOD classes that will kill the old ones.

I don't necessarily agree with that, as we've seen several examples of SMOD's evolving through careful class association led management. Even the dear old Laser has even got half decent sail controls nowadays!

PS. I'm on the lookout for a 2 person boat to club race with my kids. See that early RS400's are now going for around £2k - seems great value to me or are they likely to be completly tatered at that price?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 9:54am

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Guest#260

the Fireball went through some pretty radical construction changes to get where it is today plus developing beyond dacron sails.


I wouldn't regard changing to dactron sails or changing some construction rules but in both cases keeping the shape and size the same asbeing radical changes. Sisn't the Fireball just make some cobnstruction changes to make mass production boats a bit easier to build?

I was sailing Fireballs at the time most of these changes went through (won the nationals in 94) and most of us in the fleet felt the changes were quite radical at the time and all supported the progress. I guess it depends on your outlook; if you sail a development class it probably looked like small beer but for a one design they changes were quite significant.

Rick

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 9:06am

Originally posted by JimC

The 400 has got a particular problem in that I believe the boat is unbalanced with too small a spinnaker for the fore and aft sail area. I imagine the rig was planned on what the market would stand at the time, and if sales are any guide it was well judged too. (snip) Perhaps to make a more optimal boat the spinnaker should be made a bit bigger and the fore and aft sails smaller so it suits smaller crews? But then it would be competing much harder with the 200, so that wouldn't be so clever either.

The 400 hull looks a lot like a Merlin, and of course the designer Morrison had designed a lot of Merlins but fallen from favour by the time the 400 was designed. Also, over the previous 15 years or so the optimum crew weight for a Merlin had gone from maybe 28 to 22 stone and a lot of Merlin teams wanted the rig changed to favour heavier crews again.

So I believe the crew weight the 400 was designed for was, in part, intended to attract Merlin owners of more ample proportions back into a Morrison-designed Merlin-type boat. That view was certainly common in the Merlin fleet at the time.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 8:20am

The Fireball never went through any radical changes (apart from in the sixties where someone added a trapeze and a kite)

Foam sandwich appeared back in the late 80s, and the only real change in the shape was not a rule change anyway...the Aussies worked out there was a loophole in the rules allowing you to build with slightly fuller bows, giving better manners on the sea.

Winder boats have built the bulk of the recent UK boats, but there were a lot of Swiss built Duvoisins at the worlds this year (as well as Aussie YMS boats) plus a huge amount of older manufacturers' and homebuilt wood, all FRP and composite boats.

Fireballs have always been very conservative indeed WRT rules changes, and the kevlar sails change is still open to debate.  Many teams were still using Dacron instead, although hopefully initial problems with kevlar durability are now sorted with design development from the major lofts.  It is just that the Winder hull is such a good and well made product it looks a bit "samey" round the boatpark.  However, it is this controlled development that has allowed old boats to stay competitive...the 10th placed boat out of 179 at the worlds was GBR13945, that is now almost 1000 boats old, and probably dates from the 80s!

Although I personally would not like to see carbon masts just yet, as let's face it, with a rig as sensitive as a Fireballs, you're gonna need to build a mast to an exact set of "numbers" to use the Finn analogy, which is outside the scope of home builders, I can't see that allowing carbon in poles and tillers will make much of a difference, and is possible for the keen DIY amateur.

The one I struggle with is why FB's never went to a loose footed sail?  There's probably a good reason, and sailmaker care to comment?

 

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Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 6:39am
Originally posted by Guest#260

the Fireball went through some pretty radical construction changes to get where it is today plus developing beyond dacron sails.


I wouldn't regard changing to dactron sails or changing some construction rules but in both cases keeping the shape and size the same asbeing radical changes. Sisn't the Fireball just make some cobnstruction changes to make mass production boats a bit easier to build?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 05 at 12:15am

Originally posted by JimC



I think typically the classes that have salvaged themselves - Scorpion even more than Fireball springs to mind - have done it much more through good organisation and planning than through radical changes in the boat.
yle and design for those fewer folk that like it I think.

Can't comment on the Scorp but the Fireball went through some pretty radical construction changes to get where it is today plus developing beyond dacron sails.

Rick

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 05 at 10:26pm
Twin trapeze FD!! Whoa!! It will be canting keel F15s next!
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Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
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