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how do you sleep at night???
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charlie1019 View Drop Down
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Posts: 173 		Post Options Post Options   Quote charlie1019 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: how do you sleep at night???
    Posted: 03 Mar 06 at 11:35pm

so come on boys and girls what should your py (merlin boys and girls) really be????


as an onlooker it should be (with an upto date boat: which is what all the other development {maybe not the very very latest design/mod but recent development} classes go off of!) about 990!?????

So what other classe do people feel are getting away with murder, if only i had the money....

 
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 06 at 8:22am

The Merlin PY hasn't changed for quite a while, but it must remembered that despite it being a development class, apart from bringing the method for measuring the spinnaker in line with the other sails and very minor tweaks to the hull the boat hasn't changed either! The last change if i remember rightly came about at the time of the wholesale PY switch and coincided with carbon rigs coming into fashion. Also the Merlin attracts a lot of very, very good sailors. 

What other boats are getting away with murder?

Phantom, Fireball, GP14, and any other one design that has undergone a massive change in either rig or construction. Cherubs and other big "Ultimate" development classes also do but unfortunatly it's the nature of the beast.

As i've said before the best solution is to give the staid classes a boost rather than keep trimming the progressing classes back.

As for 990 that's just ridiculous.

As for how i sleep, very well thank you!



Edited by Paramedic
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 06 at 9:02am

The PY number is for the class as a whole, not for the most recent boats. This will always tend to favour development classes.

Anyway, get a grip, it is only handicap racing. Not important enough to lose sleep over.

 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 06 at 10:32am
It may not be all that important; but it is sort of funny that some development classes will tell the world how they, unlike ODs, can develop and get ever faster - yet those same classes will be against any change in their yardstick to reflect that.

Shouldn't there be some sort of gentleperson's agreement - you can't have it both ways and therefore either the class should stop saying it's getting faster, or it should ask to take a hit in PY - for new boats at least.

Any other way sounds a lot like eating the cake of higher performance, and having the cake of slower PY too.

One would think it IS important to some people who may lose their club series because of a debatable PY. Secondly, if it's not important then why not change it???
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Posts: 476 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 06 at 10:57am
In Handicap racing the goal is to beat the other boats on Handicap so choosing the right boat for the conditions you Handicap race in is part of the game!

Should new one design boats also take a hit on handicap as they allways seem to be at the front of the fleet?
If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 06 at 11:09am
Hmmm, in the tight ODs or SMODs I sail, the new boats aren't always at the front. In one, #3 (out of 300+) was second at the 2005 nationals. In another, '77 boats are very competitive. In a third, you can beat 90% of championship racers in a '77 boat. In two more, the hulls that were second in the nats were about '88 vintage.

I believe in 505s and many other classes, the old boats last very well. Therefore you could say that newer boats do NOT go faster in many classes. Secondly, it may not be that the new boats are getting faster, more that the old boats are getting slower as they get soft, heavy etc. A 2006 Laser is not significantly faster than a 1987 Laser, whereas if a 2006 development class is not significantly faster than an '87 boat, the "developers" haven't been improving the breed as they so often claim to.

And the thing is that the SMODs don't CLAIM that they are improving.

It just seems a bit rich that you can claim that you are getting faster in your publicity, and then you can claim you are the same speed when racing.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 06 at 11:55am
To be fair the Merlins don't claim recent performance improvements to any great extent. They seem to have reached very much a plateau in the design space and don't see any need to change that. What changes are made to their boats are the sort of changes that are made to many one designs.

Chris, I'd take a contest your claims about new boats though. A new SMOD is definitely faster than an old one over the course of a season. It has better sails, new fittings not worn out, better reliability, less scratches, maybe even a fraction more hull stiffness. Repeat sales for boatspeed are an important part of any manufacturers income.

Its certainly possible to get an old boat up to pretty much new boat speed by a complete replacement of all fittings, all sails, ropes etc at the same time, polish, fair and fill etc but its cheaper to buy a new boat if you're going to get the work done professionally so by and large it doesn't happen. One factor is going to be that the choice of an SMOD over a more open rule boat is going to be partially controlled by the desire not to do serious maintenance but just turn up and sail. Anyway, must go and do some maintenance on the SMOD I crew in, it desperately needs it, all this worn out kit is costing us races...

As for how do the Merlin guys sleep, why should they not sleep well, they are one group of folk who have *nothing* to do with the handicap. You are actually complaining at the poor folk who do the handicap returns for their clubs.


Edited by JimC
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 06 at 1:46pm

Originally posted by Chris 249

Shouldn't there be some sort of gentleperson's agreement - you can't have it both ways and therefore either the class should stop saying it's getting faster, or it should ask to take a hit in PY - for new boats at least.

Classes don't "choose" their handicap. It is set by the organising club, in most cases unaltered from the RYA's published numbers. If you think they are wrong, you can blame the club running the race, you can blame Stuart Creswell (who runs the PY scheme), you can blame clubs in general for not sending in enough returns (certainly true) but I fail to see why you should blame the class associations, who have no part in the process.
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49erGBR735HSC View Drop Down
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Posts: 1991 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 06 at 6:26pm
The 505 seems to be doing pretty well just now and also the Hurricane 5.9 SX is running off the same rating as the 2 sail boat and is proving to be a lot quicker.
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
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hurricane View Drop Down
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Posts: 1047 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hurricane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 06 at 8:03pm

the hurricane sx has been redesigned around the rules(aka smaller self tacking jib)

other cats have been built around the rules aka the spitfire

i must point out this is using small cat handicap not py!
lifes to short to sail slow boats!

RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007
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