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Put these factors in order ....

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    Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 9:27am

.... when trying to win a championship ...

Seems there are differences of opinion' this is my view ...

1. Strategy (boat on fleet/weather patterns)
2. Tactics (boat on boat/shifts)
3. Starting
4. Rules
5. Boat Speed (inc. weight of boat, tuning of rig)
6. Boat Handling
7. Correct Weight (right crew weight for class)

Feel free to justify your order.

Rick



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 9:59am

OOOwww, you know how to ask a good question.

Id like to give a straight 1234 but some of them are too inter-related. For me weight (no7) is part of boat speed(5), just another factor. Starting (no3) is part of tactics (no2), but a very important part. Boat handling gives speed, and overall strategy dictate you tactics.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 10:01am
So what Im trying to say is for me.... there is only speed and tactics... and they are equally important.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 10:03am
depends on the boat a bit, but I think putting boat handling below rules and boat speed (especially rules) is a bit suprising. Few people win Champs who fall over all the time!

1. Strategy (boat on fleet/weather patterns)
2. Boat Handling
3. Tactics (boat on boat/shifts)
4. Starting
5. Boat Speed (inc. weight of boat, tuning of rig)
6. Rules
7. Correct Weight (right crew weight for class)

For the sort of performance boat small fleet sailing I do I'd put it like this. Of course a lot depends how far away from the optimum you are. Cherubs are suprisingly tolerant of varied crew weights, but put two 20 stone Star Crews in one and I suspect it wouldn't much matter how much better their strategy and tactics were than the rest of the fleet.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Black no sugar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 10:08am
Don't you think that Strategy, Tactics and even Starting cannot be achieved if you don't know the Rules?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 10:30am

Originally posted by turnturtle


ps Rick I'm surprised they are towards the end of your list- the general consensus after the tide ride was that you guys kicked arse on the boat handling, hence why you did so well.

I don't think that was the consensus amongst the Musto sailors ... I think most felt that it was a boat speed advantage.

Originally posted by turnturtle


That's why so much time on training courses is spent on tacking, gybing and close encounters (e.g. starting, mark roundings etc)  I think this is especially true of higher performance boats.

I think those elements of the sport are easier to practice on a training course ... how do you practice race strategy on a weekend course... those are the things you learn over time on the race course

Rick



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 10:41am

Originally posted by JimC

depends on the boat a bit, but I think putting boat handling below rules and boat speed (especially rules) is a bit suprising. Few people win Champs who fall over all the time!

1. Strategy (boat on fleet/weather patterns)
2. Boat Handling
3. Tactics (boat on boat/shifts)
4. Starting
5. Boat Speed (inc. weight of boat, tuning of rig)
6. Rules
7. Correct Weight (right crew weight for class)

For the sort of performance boat small fleet sailing I do I'd put it like this. Of course a lot depends how far away from the optimum you are. Cherubs are suprisingly tolerant of varied crew weights, but put two 20 stone Star Crews in one and I suspect it wouldn't much matter how much better their strategy and tactics were than the rest of the fleet.

I guess you have to assume a certain level of proficiency if we are considering these elements in the context of trying to win  a championships ...

We are in the same ball park here ...

Rick



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 10:59am
I think if you assume the folllowing...
 
1, Your boat speed advantage will only ever be small
2, The conditions will be variable (so if you are slightly heavy / light it will average out)
3, Starting - in a good fleet, if you cannot start you are stuffed, but as Rick said that he's assuming there is a certain level of skill assumed, I assume starting will be OK
 
I rate it thus:
 
1, Strategy / Rules / Boat Handling / Tactics (boat on boat/shifts) - all these are so interrelated; To have a Strategy, you have to have the rules knowledge to implement it, to be able to use the rules you need to have the boat handling to know you can push the rules and make sure everything you do will work and you can put the boat exactly where you want it, when you want it.   To be good at tacktics in a big fleet you need the rules knowledge etc.
 
5, Boatspeed - always gets you out of trouble - including a bad start
6, Starting (you afterall have assumed there is a good level of skill anyway - a good start will not win the race)
7, Crew shape.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 11:09am

Ah - so our sport is complexed and all the issues are inter-related so we need to be good at everything. Of course true.

But I guess the bottom line seems to be better to be a good sailor than have the best boat.

Of couse to be both is the optimum ...

Rick

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 05 at 11:13am

Originally posted by JimC

Few people win Champs who fall over all the time!

True, but in most classes, few win championships by falling over less than the other top 5 boats either. To me, good boat handling is just a qualification for it being worth turning up to a championship in the first place. I will admit to not generally having sailed classes where the boathandling is especially difficult, so I may be biased in that answer.   

In most of the classes I've sailed, starting is absolutely critical. You won't ever recover from a bad start. Nor will you come out of the critical first five minutes after the start in clear air without boatspeed at least as good as the boats around you. Thereafter, it's mostly tactics. "Heads out of the boat" as a frequent keelboat class champion always advises.

Generally there isn't much "strategy" on championship courses. If there is a clear and predictable advantage to one side of the course, the race officer isn't doing his job properly (or the venue is unsuitable). However for events like Cowes Week, strategy is critical.

 

 

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