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Standard of Proof?

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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Standard of Proof?
    Posted: 16 Jun 12 at 8:29am
At the risk of repeating myself "comfortable satisfaction" is the standard set by the Court of Arbitration in Sport - which is the court of ultimate appeal for our sport.

IMHO the change in terminology changes nothing - merely that we can now refer to an internationally accepted standard that applies (or will apply)  to all sports.

Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 12 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Brass

Caution:  I always fear that you don't have a knowledgeable judge with good people skills, to act as Advisor/Arbitrator, these single person methods can go seriously astray and cause more dissatisfaction than they help.

Agreed, and there'sa large element of catch 22. If you have few protests, because most disagreements are sorted out on the water, then those you have are likely to involve strong feelings, and most likely be complicated. Then your potential arbitrators get little experience, and are more likley to go astray than someone who conducts these things regularly. I for one wouldn't be confident to run things on my own without a couple of others to assist if some kind of faulty logic sends me down the wrong path.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 12 at 10:13am
Originally posted by JimC

  If you have few protests, because most disagreements are sorted out on the water, then those you have are likely to involve strong feelings, and most likely be complicated. Then your potential arbitrators get little experience, and are more likley to go astray than someone who conducts these things regularly. I for one wouldn't be confident to run things on my own without a couple of others to assist if some kind of faulty logic sends me down the wrong path.

Try an email/call to your regional rules advisor. There's a goodly amount of experience there to call on - e.g., Chris Simon, the Thames Valley advisor, is an AC umpire and current VOR umpire/judge. Peter Johnson in the north is chief umpire at the Wilson Trophy. Etc. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 12 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by JimC

  If you have few protests, because most disagreements are sorted out on the water, then those you have are likely to involve strong feelings, and most likely be complicated. Then your potential arbitrators get little experience, and are more likley to go astray than someone who conducts these things regularly. I for one wouldn't be confident to run things on my own without a couple of others to assist if some kind of faulty logic sends me down the wrong path.

Try an email/call to your regional rules advisor. There's a goodly amount of experience there to call on - e.g., Chris Simon, the Thames Valley advisor, is an AC umpire and current VOR umpire/judge. Peter Johnson in the north is chief umpire at the Wilson Trophy. Etc. 

 
Looks like generally very good advice. 
 
But I think what Jim is saying is that he's quite happy deciding protests on a committee with a couple of other experienced sailors at the club, but he would not be comfortable going solo as an arbitrator.
 
People like Jim, who have a wholesome nervousness about exceeding their capabilities are not a problem for arbitration:  an arbitrator can and should call off the arbitration and send the protest to the protest committee the instant he or she thinks the evidence or the rules application are too difficult.  The people I worry about are those who want to be an Arbitrator and are convinced that they could not possibly be wrong ever.
 
I'm not sure where a RYA Advisory Hearing goes if the Rules Advisor gets cold feet:  it think it just dissolves with nothing decided.


Edited by Brass - 18 Jun 12 at 12:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 12 at 1:00pm
And my whole experience of arbitrators (2 from 2 actual) and 2 more that I've discussed rules with, has been that they were the type who couldn't possibly be wrong ever!  Bit like me Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 12 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by Brass

I'm not sure where a RYA Advisory Hearing goes if the Rules Advisor gets cold feet:  it think it just dissolves with nothing decided.

He bails out and moves to a full protest hearing. Full details of the advisory  hearing/arbitration/protest structure are here: 



Advisory Hearing
Use this if you just want to learn whether you were in the right or wrong.

Arbitration
Use this if you want the dispute resolved quickly and simply.  This is not as formal as a Protest Hearing and the potential penalty is not as damaging to a boat's score.

Full protest: 
Use this if the dispute is complex, or if there has been injury or serious damage, or if you feel an exoneration penalty would be inappropriate. 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 18 Jun 12 at 2:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 12 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by Brass

I'm not sure where a RYA Advisory Hearing goes if the Rules Advisor gets cold feet:  it think it just dissolves with nothing decided.

He bails out and moves to a full protest hearing. Full details of the advisory  hearing/arbitration/protest structure are here: 



Advisory Hearing
Use this if you just want to learn whether you were in the right or wrong.

Arbitration
Use this if you want the dispute resolved quickly and simply.  This is not as formal as a Protest Hearing and the potential penalty is not as damaging to a boat's score.

Full protest: 
Use this if the dispute is complex, or if there has been injury or serious damage, or if you feel an exoneration penalty would be inappropriate. 
 
Fine, but see the table:  you can get to an Advisory Hearing without there being a valid protest.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 12 at 10:53pm
doh. RTQ. Advisory =/ arbitration. 

Advisory hearing is just the RYA formalising a chat in the pub. "No, you shouldn't have done that. Had you been protested, you probably would have lost the protest".

4. The adviser asks questions and announces the outcome. If the facts are clear, the adviser uses the rule book to explain the rules that apply, and whether a rule was broken. If a rule was broken, and a boat accepts this, she should consider accepting an Exoneration Penalty if it is available for the rule considered broken, or otherwise consider retiring. She is not obliged to do this.
1 However, when an exoneration penalty is accepted,
(a) Neither the boat nor a protest committee may then revoke or remove the penalty.
(b) The boat shall not be penalised further in a protest hearing when the protest committee decides that it was appropriate to the facts found and the applicable rules.

5. If the facts are not clear, the adviser will try to advise how the rules would apply to possible variations of the facts.
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