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Correct course to sail?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Correct course to sail?
    Posted: 10 Aug 10 at 12:58pm
2 points:
- ohFFsake should immediately request redress. The sailing secretary has no right to disqualify you under RRS 28.1. Only the protest committee may do that. And a week later will almost certainly outside the time limit for a protest;

- Brass : the marks in a conventional triangular or WL course see Appendix L addendum A) are NOT rounding marks, unless the SIs say so. Considr what happens if there is a major windshift. Boats are under no obligation to sail to the next mark and loop it if they can sail to the mark after next (following a change of course) leaving the next mark on the required side. Which is why the sagacious Race Officer will use appendix L 12.2 which obliges boats to sail between the mark and the boat signalling the change of course. A pedantic point but one that can cause chaos on a race course, especially hre in Dublin Bay where 180° windshifts are not unknown

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 10 at 1:39am

Originally posted by gordon

2 points:
- ohFFsake should immediately request redress. The sailing secretary has no right to disqualify you under RRS 28.1. Only the protest committee may do that. And a week later will almost certainly outside the time limit for a protest.

But I'm afraid that the time taken from when the 'facts are known' (RYA Appeal 89/9) until FFSake obtains advice from this forum, then submits a request for redress would likewise be outside the protest time limit and beyond the reasonable time that the protest committee should extend to.  Case 102 says you can't delay a request for redress until you know the effect it will have on your series place:  all the moreso, you can't delay your request until you have consulted Gordon on the internet <g>.

Originally posted by gordon

- Brass : the marks in a conventional triangular or WL course see Appendix L addendum A) are NOT rounding marks, unless the SIs say so. Considr what happens if there is a major windshift. Boats are under no obligation to sail to the next mark and loop it if they can sail to the mark after next (following a change of course) leaving the next mark on the required side. Which is why the sagacious Race Officer will use appendix L 12.2 which obliges boats to sail between the mark and the boat signalling the change of course. A pedantic point but one that can cause chaos on a race course, especially hre in Dublin Bay where 180° windshifts are not unknown

What I meant was that each of the diagrams in Addendum A, identify each mark as a rounding mark (geometrically, to be rounded at a reflex angle).

 

Is the counter example you are suggesting where, on a triangle course, the RC shifts the Windward mark so far to the left that it becomes to leeward of the Wing mark, without shifting the Wing to maintain configuration?

 

In that case I agree that Leeward - Windward then Leeward would leave Wing on the required side, and no requirement to loop Wing can be implied, but I don't agree that this would be a 'conventional' triangle.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 10 at 9:17am
Brass,

1. I agree with you about the time limit, However, the reasonable time in this instance would be when competitor learns that sailing secretary has made an improper action. If the change to the boat's score was made a week or two after the race I would allow any request for redress more than the statutory 2 hours...

2 Just because a diagram shows that marks are to be passed at a reflex angle doesn't make them rounding marks. If you read Appendix L attentively - L8.1 defines the order in which marks are to be PASSED, and the side on which each mark is to be left.L9.2 defines which marks are rounding marks. If L9.2 or similar is not used then the diagrams in Add A only show passing marks.

If there is a windshift so far to the right that boats are reaching to the windward leg a,d the leeward mark is then set down wind of windward mark, boats rounding old leeward mark can sail direct to new leeward mark and still leave windward mark (and wing) on required side. if there is no requirement to sail between mark and boat signalling change of course

Some figures :

Original wind 0°
New wind 90°

Course from original leeward mark to windward mark 0°
Course from windward mark to new leeward mark 90°

A course of approx 45° from original leeward mark to new leeward mark leaves both windward mark and wing (if there is one) on required side!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 10 at 1:28am

Originally posted by gordon

1. I agree with you about the time limit, However, the reasonable time in this instance would be when competitor learns that sailing secretary has made an improper action. If the change to the boat's score was made a week or two after the race I would allow any request for redress more than the statutory 2 hours.

I agree.

Originally posted by gordon

2 Just because a diagram shows that marks are to be passed at a reflex angle doesn't make them rounding marks. If you read Appendix L attentively - L8.1 defines the order in which marks are to be PASSED, and the side on which each mark is to be left.L9.2 defines which marks are rounding marks. If L9.2 or similar is not used then the diagrams in Add A only show passing marks.

I disagree.  The drafting note to L9.2 says 'Unless it is clear from the course diagrams list the marks that are rounding marks'

I understand this to mean that if it is clear from the course diagrams that marks are rounding marks then that is what they are, without the need to say so in words in L9.2.

Originally posted by gordon


If there is a windshift so far to the right that boats are reaching to the windward leg a,d the leeward mark is then set down wind of windward mark, boats rounding old leeward mark can sail direct to new leeward mark and still leave windward mark (and wing) on required side. if there is no requirement to sail between mark and boat signalling change of course

Some figures :

Original wind 0°
New wind 90°

Course from original leeward mark to windward mark 0°
Course from windward mark to new leeward mark 90°

A course of approx 45° from original leeward mark to new leeward mark leaves both windward mark and wing (if there is one) on required side!

I have difficulty following your example.

If wind changes from 000 degrees to 090 degrees, and RC moves the Leeward mark to be dead downwind of the Windward mark, then course from Windward to new Leeward mark is going to be 270 degrees not 090 degrees.

Once the RC moves the Leeward mark from its old position to a new position West and downwind of the Windward mark, how is the old position of the leeward mark relevant?

The way I see it is that for any of the courses pictured in Addendmum A, marks are all geometrically rounding marks, unless the RC moves one mark and does not move others to maintain the course shape.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 10 at 8:23am
Originally posted by Brass

I disagree.  The drafting note to L9.2 says 'Unless it is clear from the course diagrams list the marks that are rounding marks'


I understand this to mean that if it is clear from the course diagrams that marks are rounding marks then that is what they are, without the need to say so in words in L9.2.


Right on line with Brass on this one... we do our courses with a marks and a string on pegboard in the clubhouse, so its pretty difficult to stuff up, but I suggest the crucial thing that was wrong with the original course diagram shown was the lack of a track... So the lesson there for any RC is always to include the string track on your course diagram, then if the track touches the mark on the far side its rounding, and if it goes past without touching its not...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 10 at 9:47am
Brass,

OOPs, should have said new wind 270° - now work through the example... no need to go to windward mark!

App L8.1 defines order that marks are to be passed. The whole point about the courses in App is that they are approximate diagrams, and are subject to change during the race. When there is a change of course there are circumstances in which boats can comply with rule 28.1 without sailing to the mark that starts the leg that has been changed. Which is why App L provides clear and unambiguous propositions to deal with the problem

L9.2 which allow you to define which are the marks to be rounded
L9.5 which defines the boat signaing change of course as a mark
L12.2 which introduces an obligation to pass through gate between boat signalling  change of course and nearby mark.


Using a line to define a  fixed course round fixed marks  can make it clear that marks are rounding marks (I would argue that it is always best to define such marks in writing), however " The identification of a mark as a rounding mark must be unambiguous. For instance, to state that a mark is to be left to prot (or starboard) gives a boat the option not to round it" (RYA 1985/4). The identification of marls in App L Add A as rounding marks is not unambiguous.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 10 at 10:08am
Originally posted by gordon

When there is a change of course there are circumstances in which boats can comply with rule 28.1 without sailing to the mark that starts the leg that has been changed.

I don't think there's any doubt that a sufficiently determined RC can stuff up almost anything: as the saying goes, its hard to make anything foolproof because fools are so very ingenious...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 10 at 7:48pm
The other reason for an RO to draw round the marks (or tie string) is that errors will then be easier for him or her to spot. Most sailors would be amazed to find out that there are 2 ways of going round a mark defined somewhere in the depths of the rules.
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