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Windward mark: Both must tack
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Brass View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Oct 12 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by JimC

OK, you need to explain that to me a bit more... I see the non-applicability of 18.2, that's clear enough, but the first bit of 18.3a troubles me.

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on
the required side...


My emphasis. Assuming that R was smack on the lay line, then in order to get a Merlin (which is some 7 feet wide) round the mark it seems to me that the R is likely to be pushed way above close hauled if the boats are overlapped.
Quite right, assuming R was smack on the lay, except:
  • M might have tacked that far below the layline, which led to her clanging the mark;
  • M might have tacked quickly and borne away below close hauled;  or
  • conceivably M could tack quickly, still come out faster than R and keep clear remaining clear ahead of R all the way to the mark 
But it's just your assumption, not in the original scenario, that R was smack on the layline:  she might just as well have bee a bit above it.
Originally posted by JimC

 So although windward must keep clear, I don't see why that entitles L to luff up to get round the mark if in doing so W must sail above close hauled. Doesn't the restriction on forcing above close hauled continue until the are out of the zone as well as the rstriction on preventing from passing the mark? 
Correct.

L/M isn't.

It does.
Originally posted by JimC


But I guess we need a few more facts here again.
To help maintain our sanity, and avoid endless chains of speculation, there's a convention in judges exams that if the original scenario doesn't contain the facts necessary to establish any particular breach of the rules, then to assume that the facts did not support that breach.

Not always appropriate when answering web-posts, but we can probably rely on it here.

R isn't complaining about anything, it's M getting upset about being 'forced' into the mark.

Also, sometimes it isn't helpful to go exploring a possible breach that would have required a valid protest that probably wasn't hailed for.
Originally posted by JimC

 

Were M and R overlapped after M completed her tack? Was M on the layline or below it?

Why did M get tangled in the mark? Was it avoiding a collision because R didn't keep clear, or was it, with little way on after tacking and (possibly) below the lay line, they plain couldn't get round the mark?

Did R have to sail above close hauled at any time to keep clear?

Was R bang on the lay line or above it?

Was there enough room between M and R to get M round the mark?
All good questions if we want to get to a 'complete' analysis, and if answered, will readily lead to the right answers.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 12 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by JimC

OK, you need to explain that to me a bit more... I see the non-applicability of 18.2, that's clear enough, but the first bit of 18.3a troubles me.

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on
the required side...


My emphasis. Assuming that R was smack on the lay line, then in order to get a Merlin (which is some 7 feet wide) round the mark it seems to me that the R is likely to be pushed way above close hauled if the boats are overlapped.
So although windward must keep clear, I don't see why that entitles L to luff up to get round the mark if in doing so W must sail above close hauled. Doesn't the restriction on forcing above close hauled continue until the are out of the zone as well as the rstriction on preventing from passing the mark?

But I guess we need a few more facts here again.

Were M and R overlapped after M completed her tack? Was M on the layline or below it?

Why did M get tangled in the mark? Was it avoiding a collision because R didn't keep clear, or was it, with little way on after tacking and (possibly) below the lay line, they plain couldn't get round the mark?

Did R have to sail above close hauled at any time to keep clear?

Was R bang on the lay line or above it?

Was there enough room between M and R to get M round the mark?
Sorry, I thought I answered this last night, but it's gone astray.
 
Edit:  Duh! didn't turn the page.
 
You can assume that R tacked bang on the lay, or you can assume R tacked a little above and M tacked a little below.
 
Or you can just assume that, since in the OP scenario, nobody is complaining about rule 18.3( a ), that it's a non-issue.
 
But you're quite right, if R is right on the layline, and she goes above M to avoid contact or to keep clear, then necessarily she is sailing above close hauled.  All the more so if R is outside M and M herself sails above close hauled (allowing for the difference in 'close hauled' for each different type of boat).
 
And you are also right:  the limitations of rule 18.3 apply while ever rule 18 applies, that is while ever one of the boats is still in the zone.
 
To solve the rules 'problem' that piglet asked, you don't really need to explore whether R might have broken rule 15, or rule 11.  It suffices to apply rule 18.3 to identify the limitations on M as clear ahead or leeward right of way boat.
 
You asked 'Was there enough room between M and R to get M round the mark?'.  Because there is no entitlement to mark-room (or any other kind of room under rules 15, 16.1, 19, or 20), whether there is room is irrelevant:
  • R must keep clear of M;
  • M must not cause R to sail above close hauled or prevent her from passing the mark on the required side (rule 18.3);
  • M must not change course and not give R room to keep clear (rule 16.1).

 

 
 


Edited by Brass - 17 Oct 12 at 11:06pm
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Patrick McCosh View Drop Down
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Posts: 3 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Patrick McCosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 4:32pm
Last Sunday the optimists approaching windward mark upwind leg all on port after a big windswitch to the left. 

No overlap at the zone, lead boat A is clear ahead.  Lead boat A tacks onto starboard to round the mark and boat behind (B) collides into back of A before A completes her tack.

Who is give way boat ? 
Patrick
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by Patrick McCosh

Last Sunday the optimists approaching windward mark upwind leg all on port after a big windswitch to the left. 

No overlap at the zone, lead boat A is clear ahead.  Lead boat A tacks onto starboard to round the mark and boat behind (B) collides into back of A before A completes her tack.

Who is give way boat ? 


If B hit the back of A, that suggest to me that A was not yet head to wind, hence still had ROW.
If A was clear ahead when she entered the zone, and entered the zone before tacking, B must keep clear. 18.2 b.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 5:11pm
A on port enters the zone clear ahead. She is entitled to mark room (rule 18.2b), but mark room does not include room to tack.

A passes head to wind and is subject to rule 13. She is no longer entitled to mark-room (18.2c). Until A reaches a close hauled course A must keep clear of B. As B became right of way boat by the actions of A, B is not required, initailly, to give A room to keep clear. There was contact between A and B.

A broke rule 13 and should take a penalty. If there was damage to either boat, or injury and B did not attempt to avoid the collision B broke rule 14.
Gordon
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Patrick McCosh

Last Sunday the optimists approaching windward mark upwind leg all on port after a big windswitch to the left. 

No overlap at the zone, lead boat A is clear ahead.  Lead boat A tacks onto starboard to round the mark and boat behind (B) collides into back of A before A completes her tack.

Who is give way boat ? 


If B hit the back of A, that suggest to me that A was not yet head to wind, hence still had ROW.
Good get.
Originally posted by RS400atC


If A was clear ahead when she entered the zone, and entered the zone before tacking, B must keep clear. 18.2 b.
Not so good.
 
At a windward mark, when one of two boats initially on the same tack (with rule 18 applying), changes tack by passing head to wind, boats are on opposite tacks on a beat to windward (or at least the proper course at the mark for one but not the other is [will be] to tack) and rule 18 ceases to apply altogether (rule 18.1( a ) or ( b )).
 
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 8:25pm
So, boat A, having passed head to wind, must keep clear of B until she is on a close hauled course, (R13). But if B alters couse during this time, R16.1 would mean A be given room to keep clear.
Room to keep clear presumably might not allow A to bear off to close hauled, she might have to go back onto port?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 12 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

So, boat A, having passed head to wind, must keep clear of B until she is on a close hauled course, (R13). But if B alters couse during this time, R16.1 would mean A be given room to keep clear.
Room to keep clear presumably might not allow A to bear off to close hauled, she might have to go back onto port?
 
Yes, if it was possible for A to tack back onto port, she might be able to keep clear by doing that.
 
But with Optis, I would think that there would be a good chance that if A attempted to tack back, whe would end up in irons, right in the headlights.
 
I wouldn't want to be B in the protest hearing saying 'sure I hunted up and A could have kept clear by tacking back onto Port' unless these were boats that carried some way and I was sure that I could make a good case that tacking back in time to keep clear was possible.
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