recalls and VHF

may

   I have just posted this on the keelboat development forum. As it is a question that concerns the rules I thought it appropriate to post a copy here. Would it be possible to post replies on the keelboat development forum, as I feel that this is a question that should be settled by a discussion between competitors and race officials. Once we agree what we want it is an easy matter to write suitable SIs.

In some events, and at some venues, it has become standard practice for
Race Officers to call the sail number of boats that were over the line
at the start. This gives boats an opportuntity to return and start
correctly.

However, what should happen if the Race Officer either:
- does not call a sail number and later records the boat as OCS;
- calls a sail number incorrectly, by a slip of the tongue or by misreading the sail number then later corrects the sail number;
- inadvertently calls the sail number of a boat that is not OCS.

Many
RO's and even more judges seem to be of the opinion that the use of VHF
does not modify the recall procedure. They maintain that the call is a
simple communication between members of the Race Comittee and not an
announcement to competitors. A boat that is OCS has therefore no right
to redress if his number is not called or if the incorrect number is
called.

This seems unfair to me. What do you think?

Gordon DAVIES

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gordon Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037	Post Options Post Reply Quote gordon Report Post Quote Reply Topic: recalls and VHF Posted: 06 Sep 07 at 10:24am
	I have just posted this on the keelboat development forum. As it is a question that concerns the rules I thought it appropriate to post a copy here. Would it be possible to post replies on the keelboat development forum, as I feel that this is a question that should be settled by a discussion between competitors and race officials. Once we agree what we want it is an easy matter to write suitable SIs. In some events, and at some venues, it has become standard practice for Race Officers to call the sail number of boats that were over the line at the start. This gives boats an opportuntity to return and start correctly. However, what should happen if the Race Officer either: - does not call a sail number and later records the boat as OCS; - calls a sail number incorrectly, by a slip of the tongue or by misreading the sail number then later corrects the sail number; - inadvertently calls the sail number of a boat that is not OCS. Many RO's and even more judges seem to be of the opinion that the use of VHF does not modify the recall procedure. They maintain that the call is a simple communication between members of the Race Comittee and not an announcement to competitors. A boat that is OCS has therefore no right to redress if his number is not called or if the incorrect number is called. This seems unfair to me. What do you think? Gordon DAVIES
	Gordon

Scooby_simon Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415	Post Options Post Reply Quote Scooby_simon Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Sep 07 at 11:00am
	Gordon, I guess it depends what the SI's say. If they say the numbers will be annnounced on channel x FOR THE COMPETITORS and this is to be taken as a signal to return, then it is binding. If it is said that "numbers *may* be announced then they are not binding. by this statement, the OOD is saying that your number may be announced, it may not. Also if the SI's say that the communication is for the officials only, then they catch the "wrong number announced" issue. Also, it can depend on what the competitors think they hear. They might hear "the boat behind 1287 was not over" as "boat 1287 was not over". I'd be inclined to work the SI's as "this is information for the sailing team and may or may not be correct, speculation and discussion". DO NOT MAKE it something people can rely on. In absence of any statement in the SI's I would view it as simply "radio clutter" and of no value in me making a decision to go back or of value during a contested decision.
	Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..

gordon Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037	Post Options Post Reply Quote gordon Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 06 Sep 07 at 11:40am
	As I said - once we decide what competitors and race officials want then it is easy to write appropriate SIs. There is a model... RC racing uses hailed sail numbers as their standard recall procedure. I am more interested in arriving at some kind of consensus. I believe that for convival events (regatta weeks, club racing) if ROs want to call numbers over the VHF they should be part of the recall procedure. For major international events only the X flag and sound signal should be used, and ROs should refrain from calling sail numbers at least until the start line is closed. Gordon
	Gordon

ChrisJ Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Far too distracted from work Joined: 07 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 337	Post Options Post Reply Quote ChrisJ Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Sep 07 at 11:10am
	And the call of "the dark blue boat down the far end of the line is over" means what? Often the RO can see who is over the line, but can not see the actual sail numbers until the fleet angles change - or until the spotter boat at the other end of the line radios back "the blue boat is number 1234". The intention is that that sound signals (and voice is just a sound signal! especailly if you are on a boat / next to one with noisy genoa winches, while your VHF speakers may not be very loud) are for guidance only. The only thing that is accurate is the flags - everything else is a guide only. Calling out over the VHF who might be over might be a GREAT assistance to people, but it is really just telling them that its worth looking at the flags...

mckecfra Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Newbie Joined: 12 Sep 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 12	Post Options Post Reply Quote mckecfra Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 10:25pm
	if u think your over you should restart just to be safe, if the your sail nuber gets called by mistake u continue on and if they disqualifie you then protest there will be one person seeing if you where over or not, not 100% i only racing in a small club atm